Posted by Veronique Hanson on 10/25/11 9:56pm
Msg #401697

about a quick claim deed.

I went for a sign in for a quick claim deed and i notarize a jurat for my client. when he went to record it in Oxnard they told him that he needed also an acknowledgement form to be notarize too. do we need those 2 forms for a quick claim deed?? i thought it was either an acknowlegement or a jurat!!

Reply by NJDiva on 10/25/11 10:02pm
Msg #401699

Please be nice my friends... n/m

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/25/11 10:23pm
Msg #401701

I'll try, NJD

"I went for a sign in for a quick claim deed and i notarize a jurat for my client. when he went to record it in Oxnard they told him that he needed also an acknowledgement form to be notarize too. do we need those 2 forms for a quick claim deed?? i thought it was either an acknowlegement or a jurat!! "

First of all, it's a quit claim deed - as in: somebody is quitting their lawful claim to property. Seldom is there anything quick about it. I don't know of any real property deed that can record in a CA county without an ack. Whoever chose a jurat as the sole notarial certificate to accompany this document was largely mistaken.

As far as either/or: occasionally, a CA notary may run across a hybrid doc that calls for both a jurat and an ack.

Reply by John Tennant on 10/25/11 10:38pm
Msg #401705

Re: Please be nice my friends...

Why?? Based on her posting she doesn't deserve to be commissioned in the State of California. How in heck did she get her commission???

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/26/11 12:30am
Msg #401723

Re: Please be nice my friends...

John is correct!!
I did a refi on a piece of property for a couple. The wife owned the property before they got married.
In the loan docs there was a quick claim deed for the husband to sign, but he was also a cosigner for the loan.

Reply by HisHughness on 10/26/11 1:12am
Msg #401727

Re: Please be nice my friends...

***In the loan docs there was a quick claim***

Buddy, go back and read the first few posts in this thread before somebody raps you upside the head with a 9-pound embossing seal.

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/26/11 2:03am
Msg #401734

Re: Quit!!!!!! Sorry was being to quick n/m

Reply by SharonMN on 10/26/11 9:25am
Msg #401753

Re: Please be nice my friends...

Why doesn't she deserve to be commissioned, John? Presumably the person presented a deed with a jurat form attached, which she completed. Not the notary's job to choose the certificate or know what is required for recording. (Also not her job to know that the document is a "quit claim" deed although she could read the header and she her mistake unless the person that drafted it is equally wrong!) I think asking whether one can attach a jurat and an ack to one document is a perfectly legit question.

Reply by jba/fl on 10/26/11 8:20am
Msg #401745

Want nice? Go to Mr. Roger's neighborhood.

We deal with reality here, and most of us don't have to be told how to act.

Reply by NJDiva on 10/26/11 8:46am
Msg #401749

Jules are you talking to me?

I wasn't TELLING anyone how to act, be sure of that. I was ASKING that we not have to read a whole lot of vile nasty remarks...that's all.

Wow!

Reply by Jessc098 on 10/25/11 10:27pm
Msg #401702

A few things... being nice

Veronique,
Welcome to the notary business!

First off, it is a "quit-claim deed." It is only incidentally "quick." The purpose of this document is for one owner to quit his/her claim to title, hence the name. Basically, it's the "I want out of this contract" page though there's a variety of reasons for getting off of title of a piece of real estate. (divorce comes to mind).

One important thing to know about these documents (though it is not our place to tell anyone) is that signing a quit-claim deed only quits your claim to the property. If there is a loan attached to that property, a quit-claim deed does not remove the signer from the mortgage/note. (This is a commonly misunderstood point, which is why I bring it up). It would be a shame to think you are off of a piece of property simply because you executed a quit-claim deed, only to have your co-borrower default and have the bank hunt you to the ends of the earth....

Second, I would not notarize anything for anyone until they have also instructed me as to what kind of notary action they require. (Acknowledgement, Jurat or what specifically). The document should come with this language--if it does not match your state's requirements, you append a certificate that does. If it doesn't come with any language, ask the client to ask the requesting agency or person what they want. If you were to suggest one versus the other, that could be considered an unauthorized practice of law, which is prohibited, unless, of course, you are an attorney.

I typically take a look at the documents I am being asked to notarize (which is an action more than simply affixing your seal) and see if perhaps the client needs to "double check" their instructions (more likely, stop guessing at what they need).

There is no such action as "just notarize this." You must do something specific.

A Jurat says that you administered an oath to the person (who you have identified with ID), and witnessed the person sign. I cannot think of a reason wherein you would need someone to swear that they want their name removed from title. That seems redundant.

An Acknowledgement says that you know who is signing the page, (you carefully checked ID), and that you witnessed them sign (much more likely in your situation) and that you know that the person signed the document freely and is to the best of your knowledge, of sound mind.

Depending on the state, I think some notaries can do other things. I can certify a copy here in WA, but not much else.

I would HIGHLY suggest that you stop pursuing real estate transactions until you can get both insurance and some more training. An error like this can cause huge personal liabilities to you that are extraordinary. There are a few Notary Signing Agent training courses out there. I'm not wild about any of them, (I took every one that I could find) but the combined instruction has served me well for the several years I have been doing this, and I've never had a loan fail to fund as a result of my error.

Many of our peers have faced personal lawsuits as a result of notary error--even an honest-to-goodness mistake.

Get insurance.
Get training, or risk getting sued by a client whose documents didn't record properly or a bank whose final loan package was flawed with a notary error.

Please do this before completing more real estate transactions. I can't tell you how many times I've had signers tell me "I should get my daughter doing this... she's a student at the University..." I have to stop and explain the consequences of an error, and what constitutes neglect in this business, and a notary's room for error is VERY VERY small without dire personal repercussions.

You have to remember that one of the reasons that many banks and TC's aren't out there doing this themselves is because they don't want the liability.

If there is Notary Signing Agent (NSA) training available in your state, that is your best bet. Otherwise, several organizations offer it--but I haven't seen a generic (all states) training that I thought was complete enough to rely on alone.

Good luck,
JW

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/25/11 10:49pm
Msg #401706

HUH?

One important thing to know about these documents (though it is not our place to tell anyone) is that signing a quit-claim deed only quits your claim to the property. If there is a loan attached to that property, a quit-claim deed does not remove the signer from the mortgage/note. (This is a commonly misunderstood point, which is why I bring it up). It would be a shame to think you are off of a piece of property simply because you executed a quit-claim deed, only to have your co-borrower default and have the bank hunt you to the ends of the earth....

This is fascinating, JW. I had no idea. I thought that when someone signed a QC, that was it - as opposed to an interspousal grant deed - which courts can get all wishy-washy about. In any case, if someone signs a QC, they will not be on the loan. The two are mutually exclusive. Only in rare cases can one be a borrower but not an owner when it comes to real property. In fact, they generally leave the room after signing, because at that point the loan is none of their business ..... unless the borrower wants them to stay. Maybe community property laws are different in WA than in CA, and I can see a lender tracking down a spouse when the other spouse has defaulted, but if that spouse has no interest in the property , well, I don't see the point....?

Reply by John Tennant on 10/25/11 10:56pm
Msg #401708

Say What?

I just completed a quitclaim deed with a relative that transferred the property to me. In no way did it relieve him from the loan obligation. We had to contact the lender and I had to assume his responsibility subject to their approval. If they had not approved, he would have been fully responsible if I, or anyone else, did not make the payments or pay the loan off.

Reply by topflyt on 10/26/11 12:17am
Msg #401721

Re: Say What?

Hopefully you weren't the one notarizing the deed.

Reply by Jessica Ward on 10/25/11 10:59pm
Msg #401709

Must be a state thing?

I've been told on NUMEROUS occasions (By TC's and attorneys) that you have to get off the loan separately, or refinance out of the loan in order to get off.


I've seen grant deeds, I've seen quit claim deeds in a refinance when one spouse decides to hold the property in their own separate estate, and the other spouse is basically agreeing to that. (You can't automatically choose to have a property separately here without a spouse signing off on it, with the possible exception of a 2nd home--I've heard two conflicting opinions on this).

But when I get asked to do JUST a QC deed, not part of other loan docs, it is almost always a divorce. I've been cautioned by attorney friends to watch out for these (often one spouse's attorney will tell the other spouse "sure, we'll take care of it, just go have this signed.") Though with this caution, I'm not sure what I should do about it (I don't feel that I can give legal advice except for "if you have an attorney on your side, check and make sure that's ok with them" though this did save my sister a big headache in her divorce.

It's not qualified legal advice, but I'm a big fan of Dave Ramsey, and he does a LOT of real estate. He agrees with me-- a quit-claim does NOT get you off the loan. http://www.daveramsey.com/index.cfm?event=askdave/&intContentItemId=6275

Reply by John Tennant on 10/25/11 11:02pm
Msg #401710

You are absolutely right Jessica. Deed and loan seperate. n/m

Reply by Jessica Ward on 10/25/11 11:05pm
Msg #401711

Thanks--I was pretty sure I had good advice there.

But I can't suppose to know what quirky rules there are in other states. It's always been my understanding that deed/note are two entirely different animals.

Jessica/Jessc098 (For some reason, mid-thread my ID changed).

Reply by HisHughness on 10/25/11 11:16pm
Msg #401712

Re: Thanks--I was pretty sure I had good advice there.

A person can unilaterally quitclaim his interest in property without consulting the lender. That does not mean that an obligor on a note can wipe out the note just by giving the property to someone else. That's not a state thing; that's simple logic. The obligor still owes the money. Nor does a quitclaim eliminate any security interest in the property, based on the same principle.

Most the time, quitclaims are not used to transfer title, they are used to clean up title. Glitch in the title indicates your brother might have an actionable claim to an interest in the property, he gives you a quitclaim deed that disavows any interest in the property, you agree to give his kid a summer job. It doesn't mean that the brother actually <has> any interest in the property, it simply means that if he does, he surrenders it to you.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/25/11 11:17pm
Msg #401713

OK, JW...

... "a quit-claim does NOT get you off the loan."

That's assuming that Party A once signed a note and is now signing a QC. I've never been involved in anything like that, so I wouldn't know. But what I am involved in frequently is, for example, the husband is buying a house, and he doesn't want the wife on title - this is very common among people of certain foreign ancestry. She signs the QC and that's it. How is she ever responsible for the note? Another thing CA lenders do frequently: When one spouse has lousy or no credit, they delete that person from the loan. But because that person would still have title by virtue of being married to the borrower, the lender requires him/her to sign a GD or QC, (with the assumption that they will be put back on title when the loan is funded.) But still ... they are not on the note - not then, not ever. How are they responsible for the loan?

Reply by John Tennant on 10/25/11 11:23pm
Msg #401714

Re: OK, JW...

If a person is never on the loan, then they cannot be responsible for the loan, even in California, a joint property state. That was not the original OP comment. If on the loan and the deed, a QC does not release them from the loan obligation.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/25/11 11:32pm
Msg #401717

Re: OK, JW...

Yes, I'm getting the picture now. Apparently, I misunderstood the OP (whoever that was at this point, I'm no longer really sure.) In any case, I've never done a QC or GD where the signer was already on the loan. Mostly, it was done to keep them off the loan in the first place. Clearly, signing a QC would not relieve a borrower of financial obligation previously incurred.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/26/11 12:31am
Msg #401724

Re: A few things... being nice

"One important thing to know about these documents (though it is not our place to tell anyone)..."

This may be important to the person who is having the QC Deed signed, but is of no relevance whatsoever when it comes to notarizing one of these. (BTW, I did find the thread that followed to be an interesting discussion.)

What I think is important for us to know about these is that it must be complete, the signing party must present adequate ID, must sign of their own free will (and for me, must be capable of doing so in my opinion ) and someone other than ourselves should make the determination of which type of notary certificate is required. If I was presented with a QCD with a jurat on it, I'd make sure it was correct CA jurat verbiage, and proceed, assuming the other requirements were met. End of story.

On a very rare occasion, I think I may have seen a QCD with jurat verbiage, but they were probably not for CA properties. I agree that they're almost always acknowledgments - but it's not within my authority to comment on that to anyone else.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/26/11 5:45am
Msg #401739

Another thought about Quit Claim Deeds...

tax ramifications - something very few people take into account. The interest that is quit claimed has value and MAY, in some circumstances, be taxable as a gift.

My huge question about this whole thread is - if this deed was presented for recording to the county recorder, and it was notarized, isn't that recorder overstepping their authority by deciding what type of notarial certificate it requires? What legal authority does the recorder have to say "oh no, not a jurat, this needs an acknowledgement"...now I know an acknowledgement is the norm, SOP, etc etc...but if one were to look in the CA Standards of Title (or whatever is used there) I'll bet the recording requirements merely state number of witnesses needed and whether notarization is required or not.

I think some of these recorders have a holier than thou impression of themselves and their job..

JMO

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 10/26/11 6:15am
Msg #401740

Re: Another thought about Quit Claim Deeds...

Florida law requires deeds to be acknowledged. A clerk can - and should, even though they rarely do - refuse to record a document which does not comply with recording requirements.

The clerk can't just record anything.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/26/11 8:21am
Msg #401746

Great info, JW. Thanks for posting this. :-) n/m

Reply by jnew on 10/26/11 9:02am
Msg #401751

Re: A few things... being nice

" An Acknowledgement says that you know who is signing the page, (you carefully checked ID), and that you witnessed them sign (much more likely in your situation)"

This is not true in all cases. A notary public can take an acknowledgment from a signor without actually witnessing them signing. Signer acknowledges that they willfully signed the document and notary is officially certifying the signer's statement. The identification still has to match the signature, as you stated.

Reply by Jessica Ward on 10/26/11 12:18pm
Msg #401768

again, must be a state thing. I've got to witness. n/m

Reply by Veronique Hanson on 10/26/11 12:25pm
Msg #401769

Re: A few things... being nice

First of all, i was presented the jurat form in front of me. so the client chose for me to notarize that form not me. second of all i am not intending to pursuie any real estate transaction. i was just notarizing what was presented to me at that time. There was no loan doc with it. i just got surprise to hear back from the recording office that they needed 2 kind of forms jurat and ack.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/26/11 2:40pm
Msg #401791

Re: A few things... being nice

Some of us were mis-led into thinking it was "a loan sign in". Now that we know the fact, the answer is easy, you did what the client asked you do. It didn't matter that you didn't know. So, if he want's you to notarize another document so he can record it, just do and collect another ten dollars. IMO

Reply by Veronique Hanson on 10/26/11 5:05pm
Msg #401816

Re: A few things... being nice

thank you

Reply by HisHughness on 10/25/11 10:30pm
Msg #401703

I see this, and it just cuts me to the quick n/m

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/26/11 12:36am
Msg #401725

Re: Who's decision was it to use a jurat? n/m

Reply by Frank/NC on 10/26/11 8:12am
Msg #401743

Are you serious?

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/26/11 8:58am
Msg #401750

Very helpful to learn your state's Recording requirements

I didn't check CA statutes, but did find this recording requirement & the laws it's based upon:

"...California requires an all-purpose acknowledgement. (GC 27201, 27289, 27285, 27287, 27288, CC 1189)"

As far as I've ever seen & understand, each state mandates their recording requirements, leaving each county to interpret and apply the laws of the State. This would account for the 'rogue' counties that interpret & apply differently than their fellow counties (there's always one in every family, eh?!)

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/26/11 9:47am
Msg #401755

Re: Very helpful to learn your state's Recording requirements

I just finished reading the codes regarding recording deeds and can say ReneeK is correct.

I'd just like to add that I also found out (by reading code of civil procedures) the County Clerk has the authority to reject any filing; as their responsibility is to protect the integrity of the county's records and also protect the public if they suspect fraud (along with a long list of other things). So you gotta do what ever they want.

It was also interesting to find out that you must contract with the county to submit Docs electronically and follow their guidelines which are also listed. In my county, and I'm sure others, you can only record a deed with an ACK.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/26/11 9:45am
Msg #401754

Good discussion & all good info, but it reminds

me again that we don't choose the certificate or decide what will/will not record.
We complete it as it is given to us. Anything else is UPL.
It does seem that the norm for CA is a separate ack.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/26/11 2:49pm
Msg #401795

CNSA vs. notary - walking that thin line

I disagree that it is UPL for a CNSA to know what the requirements are to record a deed or mtg/dot. Every county has their recording requirments clearly stated, and they're not complicated enough to require any interpretation. Margins can be measured with a ruler, ink color is easy to decipher, font size, etc., it's all spelled out. If it says "Must be acknowledged with a CA All-purpose Ack" or it will not be recorded - again, leaves no wiggle room to figure it out.

It might mean a difference in how a Notary-ONLY were to provide this very pertinent information to someone. I would not hesitate as a CNSA to tell someone "IF you read the requirements on Blah-Blah County's website, you will find that THEY require an ack in order to record this. Now, how would you like me to proceed?"

I would go so far as to say that anyone who specializes and/or advertises in doing real estate/loan transactions should be aware of this, as it is a necessary and VITAL part of any real estate/loan transaction - and they should SHARE what they're aware of, rather than stick someone with a non-recordable document. IMO, of course. =)

Reply by MistarellaFL on 10/26/11 5:22pm
Msg #401818

Re: CNSA vs. notary - Agree, Renee

I've done more in-person recordings this past year than all combined since 2003.
I heavily advertise as a RE Notary, and my clients appreciate what *I* can bring to the table.
I live in a dual-countied city, and both do not have the same recording requirements.
I think I would be remiss by not sharing that information with them.
I do not give legal advice, I am an information sharer.

Reply by Notarysigner on 10/26/11 5:42pm
Msg #401822

Re: CNSA vs. notary - Agree, Renee

I would like to be remembered as such. Good post!

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 10/26/11 5:01pm
Msg #401814

Very True, Marilynn n/m