Posted by LynnNC on 9/13/11 2:07pm
Msg #397219

Signatures on Quicken Loans

I close many Quicken loans and recently received a notification that borrowers must sign as typed. I have been a NSA for 6 years, and in the past, if a borrower signed with a scrawl I let them do so, and if their signature was readable, then as typed. I never had a problem.

Now, all signatures will have to be as typed and some borrowers will complain.

Reply by BossLadyMD on 9/13/11 2:15pm
Msg #397221

Complaints should be directed to the lender....

NSAs verify identity. I'm seen some signatures that looked like they used with their toes. I dont think twice about it.

Reply by Les_CO on 9/13/11 2:21pm
Msg #397222

Re: Complaints should be directed to the lender....

I believe that means that if the borrowers typed name in the documents was for example: Barrack Hussein Obama, that the borrower can’t sign as : “His Majesty” or “The Perz” or “B O” or in any way different that the name typed in the docs. JMO

Reply by Patricia/VT on 9/13/11 2:22pm
Msg #397224

Re: Complaints should be directed to the lender....

I agree. Illegible signatures are whatever the borrower says they are. I have had a client sign with Chinese characters. It matched the signatures on his Canadian passport and his Vermont operator's license. Signing a document with one's signature is not the same as writing one's name.

Reply by BossLadyMD on 9/13/11 9:15pm
Msg #397269

Re: Complaints should be directed to the lender....

Let me make sure I understand. If their name is typed John J. Smith then they are expected to sign that way per lender instructions? That is the policy of most banks. If they don't sign as typed, it could derail funding. Plus, the Same Name Affidavit/AKA is sufficient to cover variations. Now as far as someone having a neat signature or a funky signature, that's a personal preference. My husband has a horrible signature, he uses just 2 letters and a squiggly line lol.

Reply by LynnNC on 9/14/11 11:01am
Msg #397318

A person cannot make a squiggly signature on a Quicken loan

If a person's name is John A. Doe, he must sign as John A. Doe.

In tha past, and I will continue to do so on other loans, if a person has a squiggly signature I let them use it. If the signature looks like initals and a squiggle, I tell the borrower to try to make their squiggle as typed (they will use a few more squiggles). If a borrower's signature is legible, I have them sign as typed.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 9/13/11 2:22pm
Msg #397223

I've been seeing "borrowers must sign as typed" for years, but it never applied to the scrawl -only if you could actually read what they were signing. Are you double sure that's what they mean? Maybe the notification is the result of NSAs not getting middle initials or allowing someone named Batty Jones to sign BJones.

Forcing people with a scrawl or an unreadable artsy signature to sign "as typed" is like wrestling a den of rattle snakes.

Reply by Les_CO on 9/13/11 2:33pm
Msg #397225

I think the more correct acronym wound be “herding cats” This topic has been discussed here ‘Ad nauseam’....A person’s legal signature is their unique signature. That’s one of the reasons for a ‘signature affidavit”. JMO

Reply by Glenn Strickler on 9/13/11 2:46pm
Msg #397230

"As Typed" Means if their full first, middle and last name is typed below the signature line, then they sign their first, middle and last name in their own hand. Now if it looks like the contrail to the Space Shuttle and they say that their signature includes those names and that is how they always sign their legal signature, that is it. It will stand up in court. (JMHO, I am not an attorney, but I work for one often)

Now the $64,000 question: Next time you have a Quicken loan and it says "As Typed" does that mean that you are going to make the BO print their name in block lettering as closely emulating the computer printing below the signature line? No, I don't think so .......

Reply by Les_CO on 9/13/11 2:55pm
Msg #397231

What if it’s in "ITALICS"?

Reply by Notarysigner on 9/13/11 3:59pm
Msg #397235

Better yet...how about them signing as typed,...."As typed"? LOL

Reply by Les_CO on 9/13/11 5:11pm
Msg #397242

I think someone posted here that they had an Asian couple signing, and the lady in the finest cursive hand wrote "As Printed" in the signature line !!

Reply by Kathy Fletcher on 9/13/11 7:37pm
Msg #397258

Re: Beware ... Arizona Notaries

On July 20, 2011, there was a change to Arizona notarial law. One in this forum mentioned they had allowed someone to sign in Chinese characters. Arizona law now states that the signature must be in a language the notary understands, no foreign characters are allowable.

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/13/11 7:54pm
Msg #397261

James, you are too funny!!!

<<<Better yet...how about them signing as typed,...."As typed"? LOL>>>

Reminds me of this:

Kid 1: "I bet you can't spell ______________ <insert long word>."

Kid 2: "I bet I can spell __________________<insert long word>."

Kid 1: "Okay, spell it.

Kid 2: <Starts spelling the word, then gets interrupted>.

Kid:1 "Ha, ha, ha, I said spell *IT*........I....T............IT !!!! Hahahahaha!!!

Reply by jba/fl on 9/13/11 10:38pm
Msg #397283

Hey - that's my family's joke....I T n/m

Reply by indaberry/LA on 9/13/11 4:21pm
Msg #397236

In my other life as an escrow officer, for mail-way docs, I use those pre-printed sticky notes that say “sign here” with the arrow pointing to the signature line. Once the borrower signed ON the sticky note!

Reply by Linda Spanski on 9/13/11 7:03pm
Msg #397252

I had them sign EXACTLY as printed ... once

It was a refi, same lender, and the signatures I obtained did not match the ones on file from the original loan. Had to go back and do it over at my expense.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/13/11 7:22pm
Msg #397254

"Had to go back and do it over at my expense. "

Why??? If it was their legal signature - and they signed as they were instructed - why is that your fault? And why on your dime?? How in the world were you to know what their signature looked like on the current loan.

All due respect - you got snookered....MHO

Reply by jba/fl on 9/13/11 7:38pm
Msg #397259

Re: "Had to go back and do it over at my expense. "

Translation: If you don't go back, you won't get paid.

Double-bind translation: We won't pay unless you are our robot programmed to do our bidding.

If they wanted a signature in the same manner, they should have sent you a copy of "What it should look like." If what they signed is currently verifiable with their current id which you did check, how can they change your rules imposed by your state? Who are these gorilla-suited people? Nevermind - I don't care to know them anyway.

Signatures change almost daily....variations are normal. Agree with my esteemed collegue from North Florida, Linda.

Reply by LynnNC on 9/13/11 4:36pm
Msg #397237

I talked to 3 different people at Quicken...

...the borrowers MUST sign as typed, no scrawls or chicken scratches. I will refer all borrowers with complaints about it to Quicken Loans. Personally, I think it is ridiculous.

Reply by Notarysigner on 9/13/11 4:41pm
Msg #397238

Re: I talked to 3 different people at Quicken...

i AGREE with you....it would be nice if Quicken instructed the borrower to do so or included a page stating that so the notary doesn't have to weather any abuse by the borrower.

Reply by Philip Johnson on 9/13/11 4:56pm
Msg #397239

You'd be out of luck at my house.

I sign very poorly, but it is the signature that is on my license. If it's good enough for the state of Washington, it should work for Quicken.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/13/11 5:14pm
Msg #397243

Re: I talked to 3 different people at Quicken...

IMO if their name is John James Doe and they sign with a squiggle but represent to me that it says John James Doe - who am I to make them change their signature??

Someone at Quicken with too much time on their hands -

Reply by pan/nd on 9/13/11 5:28pm
Msg #397245

Re: I talked to 3 different people at Quicken...

It's gonna be the borrower's signature that goes on the docs...whether you can read it or

not. And it will be "sign as typed"...and if people at the lender can't read it..tough beans..

It is what it is and if that's what's on the drivers license...that's the end of the story.

If Quicken wants to change things.....I guess they can do whatever they want.

But a contrived signature to please the lender won't cut it with me.

This "sign as typed" thing is about as ingenious as a black light bulb in a coal mine.

Reply by jnew on 9/13/11 9:15pm
Msg #397270

Re: I talked to 3 different people at Quicken...

Good point. The signature is scrawled on the license. If they separate characters on the documents the signatures will not match the id. I know LSI and some other companies used to provide a generic signature affidavit with no names showing on it. I asked why it was provided in package and they said to have borrower sign name on it to show that unreadable signature was accurate and was indeed John H. Doe.

Reply by NCLisa on 9/13/11 9:28pm
Msg #397279

Re: I talked to 3 different people at Quicken...

My signature is a scrawl, if some one told me I had to sign legibly, it would not happen. My signature is my signature, and a legible version of my name on a document, is not my legal signature.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/13/11 10:41pm
Msg #397285

Re: I talked to 3 different people at Quicken...

***a legible version of my name on a document, is not my legal signature.***

Anytime you sign your name -- whether printed, as many foreigners do, scrawled, in cursive, with an X, in foreign characters -- it is your "legal" signature if you intend it to BE your signature. That's what your "legal" signature is -- your name, inscribed by you, intended as a signature. Thus, even if you normally scrawl your name, you can actually print it <if it is your intent to sign a document> and it will be your legal signature.

I don't know where this idea of a "legal" signature arose. Did you register it somewhere? Did you obtain a copyright on it? Do you have some kind of certificate from some government agency like the Institute for Signatures for People Who Insist on Meaningless Distinctions that certifies your signature as "legal"?

You may have a "usual" signature, and, if you sign something in that fashion and you intend for that to be your signature, then it is indeed your "legal" signature for that instrument. But that doesn't make it your ONLY legal signature. See http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_constitutes_a_legal_signature

Reply by Buddy Young on 9/13/11 11:00pm
Msg #397288

Re: Good information, Hugh

The first one I ever did, I requested the signer sign exactly as typed on the document.
She told me that wasn't her signature. She tried and couldn't even sign that way. I gave up and told her that her regular signature would be ok. Glad I was right.

Reply by BobbiCT on 9/14/11 7:29am
Msg #397292

Quicken Loans - Never had a chicken scratch complaint ...

I've never had a borrower signature complaint from a lender or auditor; but then I also don't get Quicken work anymore.

When I used to get the Quicken work and a signer had an illegible signature, I included a signed statement that, in my opinion as the individual performing the notarizations, the signature on the documents matched the signature on the identification presented to me as a notary. Other than the typical Jr., Sr. III, or middle initial issues, I never instruct signers to sign in a form of handwriting that is DIFFERENT from their identification documents.

Question to those who direct signers NOT to use their "usual handwritten" signature: If asked, what will you answer when the loan file is audited and all the auditor sees on paper is that the initial loan application and identification signatures DO NOT match the signatures on the final loan documents that you notarized? Will you remember to state, "I told the person not to sign in their normal handwriting." Potential Question 2 from your governing official (Secretary of State), the auditor, and potentially the borrower's attorney (trying to get out of loan or in foreclosure): Under what authority did YOU decide to instruct the borrowers not to place their signature on the loan documents in their "normal" handwriting?

Personal opinion, not slamming those who following instructions to earn $$, just a legal neighborhood I prefer not be in.

Reply by John/CT on 9/14/11 8:10am
Msg #397296

RE: Signatures

As our colleague, Kevin/CT (also an attorney), said in this Forum on March 28, 2009: “In Connecticut any mark made with the intent to authenticate is a legal signature.” Ref: Connecticut General Assembly Section 42a-3-401(b)(ii)

Reply by Luckydog on 9/14/11 10:37am
Msg #397311

Re: RE: Signatures

I have a title company who wants a legible "cursive signature" even though it doesn't match their I.D> they say, because I am witnessing it, it is their signature and is legal at the closing. It MUST match the way it is typed underneath. If it say "John Doe", he cannot sign "J. Doe" even if that is his legal signature. It must match. Anything signed in front of the notary is legal, because you are identify and attesting to that signature.
That's what I was always told.
Usually most title company's are comfortable with the signature matching their ID, and no problems, but there are some, and they usually tell you upfront on the instructions IT MUST BE LEGIBLE. (its hard to enforce when the title company doesn't follow their own rules and use scribble signatures though and have to explain that to the buyers,lol)

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 9/14/11 9:37am
Msg #397305

Golden rule prevails."The one with the gold makes the rules

I was called to do a last minute resign last nite I had NOT done original signing.
Re-sign was because they had not signed as printed.They had given a fairly large check, but lender would not fund until dox were resigned.
I have seen the sign as typed instructions forever, and always told bwrs to sign as typed, but, absent a glaring problem such as Typed as John Q Smith and sign as J Quincy Smith, usually let it ok with no problem.
They now included very specific instuctions, including that signature MUST be in cursive and may NOT be printed.
If a state's law requires that a notarized sig match ID, then someone has a big problem.

Reply by Les_CO on 9/14/11 10:12am
Msg #397308

Re: Golden rule prevails."The one with the gold makes the rules

I’m sure in Chicago that is mostly true. Especially if your elected representatives are any example? But here in Colorado we must 'follow the law' regardless of what unknowing twit at Title or what the LO wants us to do, regardless of who cuts us a check. (usually it’s the borrowers actually pay our fee, NOT the lenders) JMO

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 9/14/11 10:27am
Msg #397310

First of all, the political shot was unnecessary and

uncalled for, but getting back to NP biz, there are two different issues.
Matching a sig to an ID is a question of identity. Do you have the correct person before you as a NP?
The lender can determine how they want their documents signed prior to giving money to a borrower.
If a NP believes that it is necessary to have notarized dox signed in a manner that differs from the lender's requirements, then the NP can ask the bwr to sign notarized documents twice . Once as required by NP and again as required by lender. Have bwr sign doc as required by lender and then sign the same doc with what the NP deems to be necessary as the "legal signature"

Reply by Les_CO on 9/14/11 10:38am
Msg #397312

Re: First of all, the political shot was unnecessary and

Wow Bob!
I understand the first part of your post! And I profusely apologize for offending your political sensibilities.

On the second part…… you totally lost me?

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 9/14/11 10:45am
Msg #397314

profusely apologize---No problemo. As to signatures ...

just trying to say that the lender set the rules of how dox are signed. NP must do what they
think is necessary to have dox signed as lender requies AND in conformity with applicable state NP law.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/14/11 10:47am
Msg #397315

It's a fruitless task, Bob

***First of all, the political shot was unnecessary and uncalled for***

Those of the conservative mindset do not believe that the rules that the rest of us have to follow apply to them.

When I have the person before me, I don't use the graphics of a signature to identify the signer. Signatures, I think, are useful for verifying the execution of instruments, not identifying the signers thereof.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 9/14/11 10:54am
Msg #397317

not identifying the signers thereof. I don't either, except

as an additonal identifying factor if there is a question as to identity.
Point is how the dox are signed as reqd by lender.
Some states may require that NP check sig on ID as part of the process of identifying the signer.
Also, in some cases, might be a issue as to signature that signer uses in NP journal;

Reply by kcg on 9/14/11 11:13am
Msg #397322

Re: ...MUST NOT BE PRINTED

I recently took docs out and the signer said he never learned to "write" his name - his legal signature was printed....it was printed on his state issued ID. How could you force someone to sign in cursive if he simply cannot do it? My instructions also said "Must sign, not print". I sent an explanatory note back and never heard anything back so I guess they had no other course but to accept it.

Reply by jba/fl on 9/14/11 11:44am
Msg #397323

Re: ...MUST NOT BE PRINTED

Now that the schools are no longer teaching cursive, what will the lender instructions become? Many from other countries, especially Caribbean island countries, have never learned cursive. What about those countries that teach Arabic, a language that to us is full of symbols? Russian - Cryllic symbols to go with the Americanization of their names?

Where is that good old tolerance and/or acceptance for another's choices?

Reply by Les_CO on 9/14/11 12:12pm
Msg #397328

Re: ...MUST NOT BE PRINTED

I'll answer your question if you will answer mine.

Why do lenders still use 'legal size' paper?

Reply by jba/fl on 9/14/11 5:57pm
Msg #397387

An answer for you: I can't even understand that one.

If they have to cut them down to record (I think in Orange Co., FL. all recordable docs must be letter size or pay more due to storage restrictions) they are taking a step that is totally unnecessary. The fault lies in not using technology effectively, not requiring employees be trained sufficiently at the TC's and in a general "it doesn't matter because I'm not paying for this - the customer (BO) is paying for all."

I await your thoughts now.

Reply by Les_CO on 9/14/11 6:50pm
Msg #397399

Re: An answer for you: I can't even understand that one.

My answer is: It’s an example of how they think. The ‘big’ guys only care about their stock options, and their golden parachute. The reality of the business (if you don’t have any customers you shouldn’t get paid anything) escapes them. The fact that they are using some archaic forms that costs ‘someone’ a bit more, and the industry as a whole millions does not concern any of them in the slightest. Until some bright new Young Turk proposes that the change to “letter size” will save them millions. Then he gets the yacht. You my friend and your opinions (however indispensable to the process) are not recognized, or wanted on this higher plain of thinking.
You may have noticed that many States have recently changed their notarial laws/requirements to be more relevant to our times, I applaud those that have. You will also notice that the Lenders and their employees by and large have not. That’s why we get…: “Just date it yesterday! Have them sign the docs the way we typed the names in, etc.” One would think with many big companies going under, and other big companies like BoA losing billions in value, that SOMEONE there would recognize the FACT that times have changed! The customer IS important! The service that they charge for IS important! And we are an indispensable part of that job, their business. And being ‘on the front lines’ every day we and our thoughts are due some consideration….but I’ll bet that most will still use legal sized paper in the future when all lawyers and the courts have not done so in years. JMO

Reply by jba/fl on 9/14/11 6:57pm
Msg #397401

And the yacht will have gold fixtures - agree! BUT

the question I asked was to do with the literacy levels and writing cursive, and what kind of signatures we will have in the future. So Les, spit shine up a piece of that crystle ball, take a peek and give it a whirl.

Reply by Les_CO on 9/14/11 7:35pm
Msg #397404

Re: And the yacht will have gold fixtures - agree! BUT

Ahhh…. if only I could answer that… My response was meant to convey that I think the entire lending industry is 'living in the past' (hence the legal size paper reference). Probably damn few twitter or tweet. Still we as commissioned officers of the State lend a necessary credibility to the process (not the illegal robo-signer Eva Green types) and we are there to LEGALLY witness the signatures of those signing. We MUST be prepared to in court under oath swear…. “That person signed that document” regardless of what the actual “signature” looks like, or how anyone would like the signature to appear. We are also obligated by some to identify, in our own best judgment, and under certain guidelines that the actual signer, as the person described in, and whom the documents pertain to..(Yes, I know about identical twins….I don’t do twins!)
Ours is not an easy task, or a light responsibility. Billions of dollars in transactions every day are supported by our good judgment and our word. That’s why we get the BIG BUCKS! ! JMO

Reply by Les_CO on 9/14/11 11:12am
Msg #397321

Re: It's a fruitless task, Bob

I apologized to Bob but NOT to you Hugh. I was just trying to emulate your many posts by injecting a bit of humor. Given the many Illinois politicians that have been accused of bribery, selling favorites, pay-offs and corruption. Some of which are in jail, some convicted, and some are still fighting their accusers. No, I won’t name them, and no I won’t number them. I was trying to relate the ‘He with the gold rules’ in a humorous way.
That has apparently failed miserably?

But please notice I DID NOT mention any particular political persuasion, as YOU did.

Reply by NJDiva on 9/14/11 12:43pm
Msg #397329

Are there any attorney's in the house?

This will acknowledge that I have been informed of the implicit instructions to the Signing Agent/Notary Public that I must sign my signature exactly as typed on the documents.

As that is not my true and authentic signature, I decline signing as such. I understand that this may delay funding or could be rejected and the documents may potentially need to be re-signed.

Please accept the below as my true and authentic signature and hold the Notary Public harmless from any ramifications that may arise.


Date: __________________________


Signature: ___________________________


Print Name: ____________________________

Reply by NJDiva on 9/14/11 12:49pm
Msg #397330

oops...I didn't finish...

As I am NOT an attorney, I was wondering if I could pass the above by someone in a position to tell me if I could potentially create legal problems for myself by having bo's that refuse/decline to sign "exactly as typed"?

I drafted it up real quick. There has been many times when I, too, have had those implicit instructions. I usually say to the bo's "as a notary public I cannot ask you to sign your name any way other than your signature, but I am telling you what they're they're paying me to tell you."

This way I am covered. I also intend to include it in the return package.

Reply by LynnNC on 9/14/11 12:56pm
Msg #397332

IMO, such a form would be the Unauthorized Practice of Law..

...in spite of it making some sense.

Reply by Les_CO on 9/14/11 6:00pm
Msg #397388

Re: IMO, such a form would be the Unauthorized Practice of Law..

Me too! I wouldn’t do it, and I think if you adhere to your States Notarial Law you don't need it. You as a Commissioned Officer of the State, need to follow the notarial laws of your State, NOT the whims of some just hired temp at the Title Company. If you “produce’ your own ‘disclaimer’ that has to do with your State given authority, perhaps trying to circumvent your authority/responsibility you could be in trouble. JMO

Reply by jba/fl on 9/14/11 6:46pm
Msg #397395

Best answer yet IMO n/m

Reply by NJDiva on 9/14/11 6:50pm
Msg #397398

Yup! Agreed Juls! n/m