Posted by NJDiva on 9/14/11 2:03pm
Msg #397340
Unauthorized Practice of Law???
I posted the below hold harmless under the Quicken Loan message below...
I have often wished I had some kind of Hold Harmless as far as asking bo's to sign their names as anything other than their signatures.
Would anyone happen to know if this would be considered a UPL since I am only using it to CMA? LOL!
HOLD HARMLESS
This will acknowledge that I have been informed of the implicit instructions to the Signing Agent/Notary Public that I must sign my signature exactly as typed on the documents.
As that is not my true and authentic signature, I decline signing as such. I understand that this may delay funding or could be rejected and the documents may potentially need to be re-signed.
Please accept the below as my true and authentic signature and hold the Notary Public harmless from any ramifications that may arise.
Date: __________________________
Signature: ___________________________
Print Name: ____________________________
| Reply by SouthernOK on 9/14/11 2:26pm
Msg #397343
But it is the authentic signature, see Hugh's post. n/m
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/14/11 2:29pm
Msg #397344
I, personally, would not provide this to the borrowers
for signature...yes, IMO it MAY be construed as UPL...
This is something they need to work out with Quicken.
| Reply by Bob_Chicago on 9/14/11 3:25pm
Msg #397357
Actially, the instructions state that if the bwr does not
want to sign as instructed , then they are to immediately call 1-800-xxx to discuss.
When I have a borrower INSIST on signing in a way that I believe will not work, and am unable to reach anyone in authority, I tell them to go ahead a sign , but that I do not know if the lender/TC will accept the dox as signed.
I then put my own note in the pkg stating the cirucmstances.
I figure that the worst that will happen is that the loan will not fund. If they do not sign at all, then it ,
for sure, will not fund.
| Reply by MistarellaFL on 9/14/11 8:53pm
Msg #397411
PAW had a similar form that I he used
He offered it on his web page, not sure if it's still there.
I had no problem having brws sign it.
Truth is, those that would not sign as requested would read the form over, and decide to sign as requested.
In 8 years I think only 1 person signed the form and signed as he pleased. I enclosed the original with the package, and kept a copy for myself.
Needless to say, I was back out at the brw's place within the week, paid for both signings, and brw was glad he didn't lose his rate lock.
| Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 9/14/11 2:37pm
Msg #397345
IMO, your proposal is problematic on several levels. But without going into all of them, what you want to achieve is to get paid for the first signing - not to have to go back for free for another signing with the bo using a different signature. So your CYA form should be directed at your hiring agency, not the signer. (Whether the hiring agency will honor it or not is another story.)
But instead of going down that road, seems to me that if a borrower refuses to sign the way you think/know the lender wants them to, call the hiring agency from the signing table and tell them that the borrower has other ideas. Let them decide. For after-hours signings, write a note to the receiving agency that so-and-so refused to follow your instructions about how to sign .... this has worked for me a couple of times and I got full fee to go back out for the re-sign.
I, too, have thought of having borrowers sign a similar form to what you proposed. However, in the end, I thought that if the lender ever got wind of it, they might get mad on the assumption that I, as a notary, don't really know what a lender will accept when all is said and done, and now I've unnecessarily ticked off a borrower or overstepped my bounds.
BTW, in a semi-related note, the late, great Paul had a form (which I carry copies of but have never actually used), that borrowers fill out when they refuse to sign a loan. It asks them to explain why they didn't sign. That was on his Web-site.
| Reply by Notarysigner on 9/14/11 2:41pm
Msg #397347
It is called NOTICE OF BORROWER’S REFUSAL TO SIGN
| Reply by ME/NJ on 9/14/11 3:14pm
Msg #397355
I would not use it but that is just my opinion n/m
| Reply by NJDiva on 9/14/11 3:38pm
Msg #397358
AWESOME replies everyone. Experience and opinions
are very much appreciated. Since I am getting guarded and cautious responses from veteran's, I will most certainly heed such feedback.
I didn't take into consideration that it could push an already livid bo that has had a frustrating, and infuriating experience (like we ever deal with THEM) over the edge and for the bo to tell me, or the lender, what to do with the whole loan...ugh...I just got a vision...
I will, however, type up and carry copies to include with the doc's to the title company. Of course I'll take the verbiage out of the bo taking responsibility and just note that I made the attempt and that the bo's refused to sign any way other than their original signature.
| Reply by Les_CO on 9/14/11 3:42pm
Msg #397361
Okay …I am not a practicing attorney…please do not construe anything I say/post as anything but my opinion (hearsay) … To start don’t bother it’s not your concern… You MUST follow your states notarial law. Do so and you are absolved of all labiality. Adding some printed document (that you authored) to the mix wont matter. If the LO says date this sucker yesterday I NEED my commission money now! Follow the law. If the girl at Title says: We don’t allow you to change ANYTHING on the docs, and you must not change the typed in venue..….follow the law! If your instructions say “blue ink/black ink, names as printed…do your best….. but follow the law! If Title says make the borrower sign as “such and such” (because the LO after two months FORGOT to tell us that these people are now married and they originally bought the property as individuals with different names and it’s too late for us to actually do our job research the records, and GET THE DOCUMENTS RIGHT. Just have the now spouse sign with her maiden name, and accept Her ID that is in her married name, after all she’s still the same person, and I as the TITLE ESCROW OFFICER do hereby give you my permission to do so…. Just follow the law!
First KNOW the LAW…and then follow it. Second is easy....DO NOT put your professional livelihood on the line for what ‘someone’ tells you. Lose the $100, and tell them to shove it, before you commit a crime, or just do something stupid. JMO
| Reply by GWest on 9/15/11 12:42pm
Msg #397463
This is not my form, it is part of the form that I received once from either a SS or TC, can not remember which:
"This is my true and correct legal signature and it does in fact say __________________. (Must Match Loan Documents).
This is to certify that the legal signature is as written below. This signature must exactly match signatures on the Note and the Deed of Trust.
I hereby understand that my lender may reject my signature if they feel that it appears to be undersigned. My lender could charge additional fees and/or adjust my interest rate if they need to redraw the loan documents."
The borrower then prints their name and signs on the next line, and a jurat is included.
| Reply by GWest on 9/15/11 12:44pm
Msg #397464
Don't know how my post ended here, this was in response to the original poster, not directed to Les's post.
| Reply by MW/VA on 9/14/11 3:52pm
Msg #397363
I haven't been following the threads on this signature
issue, but IMO it's pretty simple. If they're not satisfied with the borrowers sigs they won't fund the loan. I've done a lot of signings & never had one kicked back because the borrower's signature wasn't "legible". The whole point of having a notary there is that we verify their identity & witness them signing. I remember very well that Paul Williamson posted that a legal signature is a legal signature even if it's a squiggly line or whatever. I've been following that guideline & have never had a problem.
| Reply by Les_CO on 9/14/11 4:08pm
Msg #397370
Re: I haven't been following the threads on this signature
Remember guys….You ARE a commissioned Officer of the State. And you are there for a REASON!
I would LOVE for some LO, or some minion at Joe’s loan company, or Sal’s Title Company (or the CEO of Bank of America) tell a judge in court that this is NOT the “LEGAL” signature of this person, because it doesn’t match what we have in our files. Despite the sworn testimony of the (lowly) Notary Public, that happened to witness the signature and under oath did identify the person in question as the person that indeed did, in their presents, actually sign the document.
HA! HA! HA! JMO!
| Reply by Lee/AR on 9/14/11 3:54pm
Msg #397364
Not being a lawyer...
imho, it's still not UPL. After all is said and done, we are Independent Contractors and, as such, I believe that we (or any IC) can make up/invent whatever they feel is needed to clarify and, yes, CYA, as to whatever we feel needs to be put in writing.
I have a 'refusal to sign' form that I made up that precludes a B from later 'putting words in my mouth'...and I believe it has helped me on more than one occasion. I also have a pre-signing 'Hold Harmless' form that explains why I am here, what I can & can't do...pretty much lays it out in black & white that I do not speak for anyone. I also feel that it has prevented many 'problems of perception' and, yep, it surely is a CYA for me.
Any business owner has the right to decide how they are going to operate. (Obviously, as long is there are no laws against 'whatever'.) So, if I decide, as I have, that I do not want to do signings after dark...would this be considered UPL??? Not hardly. Those of you who return your own rules of the road when accepting a Confirming Order are simply doing a CYA. Where would this be any different? Real lawyers please do chime in.
| Reply by Les_CO on 9/14/11 4:25pm
Msg #397374
Re: Not being a lawyer...
Yup…you are an independent contractor!…But also a Commissioned Officer of the State! And as such if ‘you’ REQUIRE members of the public, your clients, that pay you, to sign a ‘purported to be legal’ document absolving you individually of any, and all reasonability in conjunction with your State sanctioned acts, that YOU happened to author………???
Boy! I just hope anyone that signs such a document and has a grievance never brings it to the light of day.
Can you play the guitar, and maybe sing as a second job?
BTW I’m not a lawyer either, and this is not legal advice, but as a friend and fellow Notary…. I’d lose those self authored docs.
| Reply by MW/VA on 9/14/11 4:32pm
Msg #397375
I agree, Les. The only proof you should need is the sig in
your notary journal.
| Reply by Les_CO on 9/14/11 4:52pm
Msg #397378
Re: I agree, Les. The only proof you should need is the sig in
Well......Now I have to disagree....since I have been to court here in Colorado, and I speak not as an attorney, but from experience...IMO the only “proof” needed is your sworn testimony. Many States don’t require signatures in a journal, or a journal at all… But you are still a Commissioned Notary Public, and in that capacity your WORD means something!
That’s why we are here doing this job…we are more that delivery boys!
| Reply by jba/fl on 9/14/11 6:37pm
Msg #397392
Not a lawyer...but pragmatist.
Formerly in sales, where the common thread in thinking is: Buyers are liars.
When I am with a borrower, we are basically one on one...my word against theirs. I have had a BO lie about me to TC personnel and to their LO. Some can not or will not accept responsibility any more than a 3 year old will. They cannot fathom that they 'missed' something in the process, that they didn't go above and beyond in their own estimation and now this pile of paperwork is not to their liking for whatever reason and they are going to dig their heels in and not sign. They tell me one reason, they tell the TC another and their LO gets even a third reason - and none of them jive.
If the BO doesn't want to sign this paperwork and we cannot reach someone for them to tell Right Now! then they are going to write a short statement to that effect. We will both sign it and that will be faxed as part of my closing report. Now I have proof....and CMA.
I don't care what they say the next day to their LO as I have a statement protecting me.
| Reply by MistarellaFL on 9/14/11 9:03pm
Msg #397415
Re: Not a lawyer...but pragmatist.
Ditto that, Jules.
When I use my form "Refusal to Sign As Instructed by the Lender" it is only to CMA, letting the lender and TC know that I so advised the brws of the lender's requirement, and the brws are acknowledging it in writing.
If they refuse to sign the refusal form, I am outta there w/o signatures, and will let the LO "explain" it to them.
| Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/15/11 4:41pm
Msg #397520
I agree, Jules.
"they are going to write a short statement to that effect"
This is my preferred way to deal with these types of situations, as well. Or I will hand write a statement that I think represents the situation (since I know the correct jargon), ask them if it's accurate and give them the opportunity to change it until we agree to the content. (I've never had any takers on making changes, although I think someone once recommended a good addition.) Then we all sign it. I make a copy to keep before I send it off with the documents.
I once had a situation with a borrower with neat handwriting who refused to sign her middle initial, which she said she never used, even though it was on the docs. I explained the risks to her, but she was adamant. So I wrote out a note simply describing the situation and stating that I had advised her that her refusal might delay funding of her loan. (I didn't add any "hold harmless" language trying to absolve myself of any responsibility, I just stated facts.)
Sure enough, it was rejected, I was back out there the next day getting everything resigned and was paid full fee for both.
I'm not a fan of most pre-printed forms, as I think some could imply a predisposition that could tilt towards UPL. However if a borrower just plain refuses to sign anything, PAWs form is a good option.
| Reply by Buddy Young on 9/14/11 4:46pm
Msg #397377
Cheryl,
My attourney, who is also a friend of mine, drew up my will. He's also a notary.
I think I might have him type up your form for me. That way I am not practicing law as an attourny typed it up. What do you think?
| Reply by NJDiva on 9/14/11 5:21pm
Msg #397382
"What do you think?"
Not sure that I have an opinion on that Buddy.
But after hearing the feed back and others views, I most likely will just establish a form to include in the package acknowledging that I attempted to have the bo's sign exactly as it was typed.
| Reply by Les_CO on 9/14/11 5:45pm
Msg #397385
Re: "What do you think?"
Well you did not ask me…but I think he, your attorney friend…may…do that if the document is concerned with your ‘personal’ acts. If however the document reflects your acts as a Commissioned Officer of the State, I’d bet he won’t do it. JOM!
| Reply by Buddy Young on 9/14/11 6:22pm
Msg #397390
Re: ok, thanks n/m
| Reply by LKT/CA on 9/14/11 10:15pm
Msg #397420
My signature is illegible and I'm actually glad when a borrower's signature is scrawled rather than readable because a scrawled siggy negates the whole "sign your name as it's printed" speech. However, if companies are demanding that someone change their legal signature from scrawl to legible, just to satisfy them - as a borrower myself, I absolutely take issue with that. My name has been signed the same way for the last 21 years. And they think I'll change after all this time? Just for THEM?!?! When mice bark is when I'll change how I sign and I, the borrower, have no problem battling it out with said entities. Someone HAS tried to forge my signature but was unsuccessful - they didn't even come close. I have an illegible signature for a reason and now that I'm a Notary, that's all the more reason to keep that way.
I'd create a hold harmless agreement of a different sort. It would be to the hiring party only and would state that the written instructions were presented to the borrower and if the loan package is rejected due to lender/TC dissatisfaction with borrower's signatures (for ANY reason) my FULL FEE is required.
As proof that the instructions were presented, I would take the lender/TC instructions regarding signatures and cut and paste them to a blank sheet so just those instructions were on that sheet. Borrowers don't need to see any other instructions for the Notary. I'd then ask the borrower(s) to sign and date under the written instructions as verification that those instructions were in fact presented to them.
| Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 9/15/11 12:30am
Msg #397422
Great idea, LKT! n/m
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