Posted by PegiT_MN on 4/23/12 3:27pm
Msg #418634

General Notary Work Question Regarding Identification

I just received a call from a young lady who would like me to notarize two POA's for her parents who reside in a senior living facility in my neighborhood. The majority of my business is mortgage closings, but I want to be able to do general notary work in my neighborhood if called upon. What kind of identification is going to be acceptable? Her father has a driver's license but she is not sure if her mother has a picture identification or not. Her mother is in the memory care unit.....do I need to make sure she is of sound mind before she signs a POA? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much.

Reply by MW/VA on 4/23/12 4:10pm
Msg #418639

I do POA signings for senior citizens. Besides valid ID, there is the question of willingness & awareness. They have to be able to understand what it is they are signing. It's been discussed recently, there are various stages of memory loss, so I would find out if she is capable to understanding. It's sad, because there's often a narrow window of time to get these kind of documents completed. After that, it becomes a legal matter for the courts.

Reply by notary4az2 on 4/23/12 4:14pm
Msg #418642

Yes they both need a government issued photo id just like in the loan closing biz. You may want to ask them some questions concerning the POA - like do they know why you are there? or if they know about the paperwork to see if there is a competency issue. Does MINN require witnesses to sign as well? If so they also need valid ids.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 4/23/12 4:38pm
Msg #418645

Read the information provided by your secretary of state:

https://notary.sos.state.mn.us/

It seems to say an ID must have a signature but makes no mention of the ID being government-issued or having a photo. Alternatives mentioned are personal knowledge or an oath by a credible witness.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 4/23/12 5:12pm
Msg #418650

The Identification issue is a MN queston. As to notarizing

a POA, for someone in a "memory care unit", I would be VERY reluctant.
If someone with a interest in her assests has an issue with the POA, or with what dox are signed pursuant to the POA, they would either join you in any subsequent litigaton, or at least call you as a witness at trial and for depositon.
You can NOT charge enough to notarize a POA to open yourself up to that liablility, or, at least, aggravation.

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/23/12 10:32pm
Msg #418692

Re: The Identification issue is a MN queston. As to notarizing

<<<If someone with a interest in her assests has an issue with the POA, or with what dox are signed pursuant to the POA,....>>>

That's NOT the notary's problem (or responsibility). We're not liable for how/when/where a POA is used and we certainly aren't liable if one family member is angry that THEY weren't declared the attorney-in-fact on a POA.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 4/23/12 11:26pm
Msg #418701

As to notarizing a POA for someone in a "memory care unit",

greatly increases the odds of the NP being dragged into the dispute.
Not the same risk for a "vanilla" POA.
There are immediate red flags raised because the singer is a memory care unit patient.

Reply by MikeC/TX on 4/23/12 5:24pm
Msg #418652

Regarding ID, it's whatever is acceptable according to your state's requirements. There's no difference between GNW and loan signings as far as that's concerned.

The "memory care unit" issue is a potential problem. Ethically (if not legally in your state), you should make sure that the person whose signature you're about to notarize is aware of what they are signing. That can be as simple as asking them, "What is this document you're signing?" If they can't answer that question to your satisfaction, you should politely decline to notarize. It's possible that a family member might try to bully you into a notarization in that case, but you have to stand your ground.

And if any of that bothers you, just decline the assignment.

Reply by Kendall Challenger on 4/23/12 5:42pm
Msg #418656

Identification guidlines are the same as if you were notarizing loan documents, valid drivers license, government, military or state issued photo ID card, passport.

Personally for me, the minute someone tells me that a signer is in a memory care unit, thats enough information for me to stay away from it.

Reply by jnew on 4/23/12 6:38pm
Msg #418662

Tell the person requesting the power of attorney how you are going to handle the signing before you accept the job. If the proposed attorney is the party requesting, I will require someone from the facility to assure me of the person's ability to sign. I will not allow the attorney to "coach" the signer. I will independently present the document to the signer. If the signer can't identify the document and its purpose or can not identify whom the power of attorney is granted to, I will refuse. I require a photo identification with a signature on it and will not accept any substitute id. If there is any behavior that indicates that the signer is impaired, I generally will scuttle it. A lot of times, the attorney gets angry if I don't do it, but if they do, I suggest they file for guardianship.

Reply by Buddy Young on 4/23/12 7:49pm
Msg #418670

another questioin you have to ask of the lady is:

Is anyone pressuring you to sign this document or are you signing of your own free will?

Reply by LKT/CA on 4/23/12 8:39pm
Msg #418682

IMHO, a memory care facility or any other facility is NO PROBLEM. Your ONLY responsibility - as a notary public - is that the signer is lucid and aware while face to face with you and that YOU are satisfied that he/she has clearly answered the questions pertaining to who he/she is and what the document is.

I typically will ask the signer questions directly from their ID (i.e. birthdate). I'll ask about the other people in the room, who they are (family, friends, nurse, other staff). I will ask them the title of the document and what it's for (i.e. "Oh this is that power of attorney paper I talked about with my son George, he needs it so he can take care of my rent and other bills), I may ask the signer where they are and why they're there (i.e. "I'm at the hospital because I had a little "spell").

If the answers are correct, I proceed. Some notaries choose not to get involved with signers who have any degree of Alzheimers or dementia or memory issues - and that's their choice, perfectly OKAY. However, it's not the "boogeyman" as some make it out to be. JMHO

Reply by jba/fl on 4/24/12 7:11am
Msg #418711

You nailed it LKT-thoughtful, considered reply w/great merit n/m

Reply by BrotherOwner on 4/24/12 2:55pm
Msg #418769

Peg: You've asked good questions, and I think you have probably have answered your own questions already. The ID requirements and are the same no matter who, what, where. While some of our fellow Notary's states are very proscribed in their ID defiinitions, we are a, ahem, a little looser:

Subd. 6.Satisfactory evidence.

A notarial officer has satisfactory evidence that a person is the person whose true signature is on a document or electronic record if that person (i) is personally known to the notarial officer, (ii) is identified upon the oath or affirmation of a credible witness personally known to the notarial officer, or (iii) is identified on the basis of identification documents.


ID documents are NOT defined in MN. law.


BOB CHI TOWN ( and you know who you are ) has my back, your back and the client's back on this one. This is not a 1 on 1 situation. Given the facts presented, you MAY be able to do Father's POA, or maybe not. You only have info from the "daughter" about the "status"of both people. She may or may not be even related. There may be other family members who would not approve of this, and may or may not already have POA. You ALWAYS have to be alert for possible fraud/scam. Working with Seniors can be a whole 'nuther ballgame, and you DON'T want to be sucked into a family feud/fight, etc. A good source of info may be the social worker.

I suggest you go to the MN. Atty. general's site and look at a typical POA form, the powers enumerated therein, and refect about the power transfer a POA permits. Money, property, healthcare, etc.

I have walked away from a notariztion on a sale of property. Some details don't matter, but one fam. member here, one out of state, where prop. was located, person was bedridden here, fulltime 24 hour care. I had questions about lucidity/ knowledge to act. Didn't know I was getting into something until I got there. BOTH actually wanted the sale so no issues there. Was hired by title co. They concurred with my assessment of client's "ability" to sign or not. Remember your responsability is to the signer and the state you represent, NOT anyone else. Sometimes you have to make a difficult decision NOT to notarize, and that can be the proper decision.