Posted by Robert Williams on 8/19/12 1:18pm
Msg #431018

Question about who can request copies of journal entries...

I'm an Ohio notary and I have had a few calls and letters from out of state companies and attorneys who demand copies of journal entries... the latest from CA, where, evidently, your entries are public record?

All I can tell them is that, yes, that's my stamp and I did notarize the document. But, no, only parties to a transaction may request copies of journal entries.

I don't mind making copies, that would be fine, but in Ohio only parties to a transaction may request copies of those entries. The journal isn't a "Public record" in Ohio.

Other than just saying no, how would you guys respond?

Reply by Pro Mobile Notary on 8/19/12 1:36pm
Msg #431023

Robert, journal entries in CA are not public record.

In CA we are not allowed to make a copy of any entry in our journals without a court order from a judge to do so.

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/19/12 1:47pm
Msg #431029

Pro Mobile Notary.

See page 10 of your handbook.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/19/12 1:51pm
Msg #431032

Howard, that's not true... CA Gov't Code 8206

In California, any member of the public can request a copy of a journal entry (from a CA notary) and the Notary is required to respond within 15 business days. It is restricted, though, in that the person making the request must know enough information to make the request.

It needs to fulfill the following:

1. The request must be in writing.
2. The request must contain: the name of the person involved; the nature of the document and the month and year the act took place.


That's it. If, as a CA Notary, we receive that... we HAVE to respond, by law, or we risk fines, etc.


It's CA Government Code 8206 and 8206.5:

8206:
(c) Upon written request of any member of the public, which request shall include the name of the parties, the type of document, and the month and year in which notarized, the notary shall supply a photostatic copy of the line item representing the requested transaction at a cost of not more than thirty cents ($0.30) per page.


§ 8206.5. Notaries; supplying photostatic copies on request; defending position in a disciplinary proceeding

Upon receiving a request for a copy of a transaction pursuant to subdivision (c) of Section 8206, the notary shall respond to the request within 15 business days after receipt of the request and either supply the photostatic copy requested or acknowledge that no such line item exists. In a disciplinary proceeding for noncompliance with subdivision (c) of Section 8206 or this section, a notary may defend his or her delayed action on the basis of unavoidable, exigent business or personal circumstances.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 8/19/12 2:00pm
Msg #431034

Re: Howard, that's not true... CA Gov't Code 8206

Hi Marian!

If you read further on in CA GC 8206, you'll see the following:

"(e) The notary public shall provide the journal for examination and copying in the presence of the notary public upon receipt of a subpoena duces tecum or a court order, and shall certify those copies if requested."

I believe Howard is also correct.

Yoli

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/19/12 2:05pm
Msg #431036

Re: Howard, that's not true... CA Gov't Code 8206

No, Howard said, "we are not allowed to make a copy of any entry in our journals without a court order from a judge to do so."

That's not true.

Yoli, the part you cited has to do with surrendering or copying, when presented with an order. It doesn't mean that that is the ONLY way it can happen. It just means that if we're presented with a court order or subpoena, we have to comply with the terms of the order... which, duh, make sense. When given a court order, it may be related to a Notary's conduct, for example, and they want to see numerous entries, which exceed the state law mandate for a single entry.

All that's saying is that if a court says to do it... we have to do it. But it doesn't mean that's the ONLY way it happens.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 8/19/12 2:04pm
Msg #431035

Marian: check your pm n/m

Reply by Buddy Young on 8/19/12 1:37pm
Msg #431024

In California a notary public must respond within 15 business days after the receipt of a written request from any member of the public for a copy of a transaction in the notary public journal by supplying either a photostatic copy for a line item from the notary public's journal or an acknowledgement that no such lin e item exists.

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 8/19/12 1:40pm
Msg #431026

seems we have a difference of opinion for CA but Robert is

in Ohio so his laws would apply : ) )

Reply by Buddy Young on 8/19/12 1:42pm
Msg #431027

To continue:

The written request shall include the name of the parties, the type of document, and the month and year in which the document was notarized. The cost to provide the requested information must not exceed thiry cents per page. Government Code sections 8206c and 8206.5

This is word for word from the SOS handbook

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 8/19/12 1:46pm
Msg #431028

CA or OH? n/m

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 8/19/12 1:38pm
Msg #431025

Robert-see you own posting for wording n/m

Reply by Yoli/CA on 8/19/12 1:49pm
Msg #431031

What does your Ohio SOS handbook dictate on this? That's what should guide your response.

Insofar as CA, Howard and Buddy have clarified that in this thread.

Reply by Robert Williams on 8/19/12 7:53pm
Msg #431080

Ohio Notary law is mostly silent. SOS mentions the confidentiality in another matter related to privacy rights.


Maybe a simple, "NO" would suffice?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/19/12 1:53pm
Msg #431033

Robert, go with YOUR state laws, not California's. CA's notary laws only apply to CA notaries. I would simply respond to them with a copy of the Ohio statute that states what it does.

If they want to pursue it further in the courts, that's their problem... you should follow what your state tells you to do.

Reply by Pro Mobile Notary on 8/19/12 2:25pm
Msg #431037

Okay, I was mistaken and stand corrected on the circumstance of providing copies of journal entries.

While I have never personally had a request for for one of those (nor has my wife in more than 20 years of doing notarization), I will take our first request to our attorney for an opinion on what can be given to whom.

Reply by Roger_OH on 8/19/12 2:33pm
Msg #431038

Law is silent on this in Ohio...

since journals are not required here, there are no standards or rules for them!

Reply by Yoli/CA on 8/19/12 2:50pm
Msg #431041

Re: Law is silent on this in Ohio...

Roger: I found this by googling for Ohio notary provisions for journal.

"General Provisions of the Ohio Revised Code Governing Notaries Public
(under Seal and Register)
A notary public must also maintain an official register in which shall
be recorded a copy of every certificate of protest and copy of note,
which seal and record shall be exempt from execution. Upon the death,
expiration of term without reappointment, or removal from office of any
notary public, the notary public’s official register shall be deposited in
the office of the county recorder of the county in which the notary public
resides. (R.C. 147.04)"

Does Ohio maybe call it a "register" rather than a "journal?" Just curious ....

Reply by Roger_OH on 8/19/12 3:09pm
Msg #431047

I should have clarified...

A "Notary Protest" is the ONLY item required to be recorded in a journal.

As discussed many times here, this is a 19th-Century way of collecting debts that is rarely used these days, save for some of the sovereign-rights folks. Almost never seen, and even then I refer them to an attorney familiar with the Uniform Commerical Code.

But no journal required here for any other notarial acts.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 8/19/12 3:43pm
Msg #431048

Re: I should have clarified...

In my state, there is no notary requirement to keep a journal. But according to our state archivist, any record that a public official does keep, whether mandatory or optional, is subject to public inspection unless there is a statute protecting the particular type of record. So you might look up records kept by public officials in general, rather than confining your search to notary laws.

Reply by Robert Williams on 8/19/12 6:44pm
Msg #431065

Re: Law is silent on this in Ohio...

Roger, I do keep a journal for some items that are not regular loan closings. I do a good bit of work for a few banks on mortgage assignments when they buy and sell the loans, and they request that I journal them.

I did find an admonition in some of the Ohio SOS material that stated that ONLY parties to a transaction were permitted to get copies of the journal entries to protect the privacy and confidentiality of those individuals.

This wasn't under ORV147, which is silent on the matter.

I was really just wondering if others deal with these requests?

Also, since I didn't factor in my time for answering them I wondered if there is a way to charge the requestor for my time?

... and to the rest from other states, thanks for the responses, but I already know that in many states they are public record...

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/19/12 2:47pm
Msg #431040

That's probably wise, just to be sure that your response follows the rules set out in CA law. We have 15 business days to respond, so that's plenty of time to have an attorney look over the request and the response just to get an opinion that you're in compliance.

But if you refuse to answer? Then you have to answer to the Sec of State as to WHY. They do allow for certain circumstances that delay and answer, but you have to have a verifiable reason, or it's trouble.

I've been asked for copies of my journal before. In one particular case, it was a certain media outlet looking for an entry after a well-known person purchased a home. Their request came from the outlet's legal department, and fulfilled the request perfectly. They used this person's legal name, rather than their stage name, knew the month and year.... and since they were buying a house... wrote "Deed or Deed of Trust" --- that letter fulfilled all of the requirements by CA law... and I had no option but to comply.

Honestly, it ticked me off because our journal entries have ID information in them, signatures... and in this case, a Thumbprint because it was a deed. I felt horrible passing on this information to a media outlet... but I didn't have a choice. What I *did* do, though, is contact that individual's attorney (who was also there at the time an had his signature notarized on other documents) to let them know it was requested and that, by law, I had to do it. The attorney said, "Yeah... I've been trying to get him to put the house in to a trust so we prevent this, but it's his decision." That was more than I needed to know, but it seems his lawyer knew it could happen, but really... DoTs are public record, so anyone could look it up and make the request for the journal entry.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 8/19/12 11:24pm
Msg #431087

You better have charged them 30 cents, Marian!

And BTW: Just cos the property's in a trust, doesn't mean privacy, as far as I know. The DOT would likely read: "Mr. Movie Star, trustee of the Mr. Movie Star Family Trust dated such and such date," and be accessible at the county recorder's office as much as an Average Joe DOT.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/20/12 12:54am
Msg #431091

Re: You better have charged them 30 cents, Marian!

You know what? They actually sent me a check for $5.00 to cover the fee for copying and to cover postage and handling fees associated with mailing it to them. LOL!!! Honestly, I never cashed the check. It felt wrong.

I think you're right about the trust, although it makes it a tad bit more difficult to dig through the paperwork.

Not all trust have to be named with the person's name, though right? I've seen plenty that have fictitious names set up as their own businesses, such as an LLC, and the trustees are the person's attorneys or whatnot. It's not impossible to find them, of course... just a few more links in the chain. NOw, is it even legal to it? I have no clue... but I know I've seen it done.

At any rate, I still felt horrible that I was actually passing on information like that. My guess is they were just trying to verify their "sources" on a story or something.