Posted by 101livescan on 12/14/12 8:50am
Msg #446509
What kind of a notary would accept $65?
One who has no self-worth and has bought into the idea that it is okay to make $65 dealing in volume. BUT considering increased gas expenses, the same energy and effort that goes into making $100 and more per signing, it's like having two minimum wage jobs, 16 hours a day. Just doesn't pencil out to me.
I don't work for under $100 base fee overnight docs, unless it's a fixit, patch job, subordination agreement not included at the initial appt, correction to a deed of trust, etc.
Well, to each his own, but I'd rather do the blue ribbon work and let the novices take the grunt work.
Let's see how easy it is for this new opportunity offered with First National Signings can hang in there offering $65. The other thing is that in my area any way, these $65 notaries don't have the polish or professionalism to be sent to many high end sophisticated clients, say the Prez of a major tech company, surgeon, politician, attorney, high level bank executive. They expect perfection and the best in class. My Wells Fargo loan officer here in Montecito won't have any part of this, in fact I'm emailing him this morning to let him know the "new business model of this company."
I can't wait to watch the drama unfold.
| Reply by Frank/NC on 12/14/12 8:57am
Msg #446511
Bet if they rethink it they wouldn't have even posted. Why didn't they post something like, "if anyone here has no self esteem and wants to work for next to nothing, just call us and we'll fulfill your dreams"
| Reply by Jack/AL on 12/14/12 9:07am
Msg #446512
One who can realize that $65 is not always a bad start, and is even sometimes quite acceptable. An offer is just an offer. I decline those $65 signings that include edocs, but usually counter and normally get substantially more with edocs and not much travel. When my counter is not accepted, that's OK, and the company will probably call me again for other signings for which we can reach agreeable terms. I don't condemn the companies that offer $65, and don't think that many of them condemn me when/if I ask for more. The few $65 signings accepted were very close to home and had overnighted docs. $65 for perhaps 2 hours of my time ia A-OK with me. Will be happy to do that several times per day. In my case, most of the signings I do start with an offer of $65 for overnights docs, but end up significantly higher and with edocs. I'm happy with it, and very busy, and making a good profit. I'm in a small city in Alabama, so I expect things might be significantly different for you folks with higher expenses and more travel, in the big cities. Roll Tide, ya'll............
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/14/12 9:17am
Msg #446514
My .02 FWIW
I don't accept that fee either - I have my minimums and I stick to them...BUT
Those that do $65 signings (a) are new and getting experience..or....more important
Need to pay their bills - and that $65/deal may be putting food on their table or paying their rent. If we come down off our loft perch and think about it, there are many who are struggling and $65 is better than $ 0 -
Again, I don't accept that because I don't have to - I know work involved and the time factor (especially in my rural neck of the woods) and what I bring to the table. But it's very possible if I was hungry enough....who knows
Don't condemn unless you've walked a mile in their shoes.
JMO
| Reply by Frank/NC on 12/14/12 11:12am
Msg #446525
Re: My .02 FWIW
The important part of business is to turn a profit. As notaries we put a lot of miles on the car and also have an awful lot of expenses. If perhaps someone were to figure all their costs of doing business, either the $65 makes little profit or it might be better to work somewhere where they don't have the expenses of computers, printers, paper, fax machines, scanners toner, etc. I'm not saying to the people who accept the lowball offers to get a job, but do some research on costs.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/14/12 1:42pm
Msg #446534
Nailed it, Linda
We don't because we don't have to. That might mean we're filling all the slots with better pay, or we're financially able to meet our needs regardless.
As for making a profit - listen, if you're 29 days late on your mtg or you have no food in the fridge, profit margins are your least concern. It doesn't always have anything to do with business sense, self-pride (pfft), taxes (he77, that's next year's problem), or anything other than immediate need. I have had the best and the worst of things in my life - and I'm grateful for having lived both sides of that coin, for all the COUNTLESS lessons I now put to wise use, not the least of which is compassion.
| Reply by ToniK on 12/14/12 9:28am
Msg #446515
I cant speak for anybody else and only this opinion applies to me and my business but $65 is not worth my time. Especially in the Northern Va area. I have come across two notaries who do accept these low fees BUT they work a full time job. Albeit I assume the full time job pays diddly. So they pick up this as a side job to make more money.
These low balling companies have a target market and audience. Im not too concerned as it has not affected my business in anyway. I am an entrepreneur and therefore run my business accordingly which has afforded me the luxury to be able to do this full time. I dont even view these people as my competition. I think of myself as the Hermes of Loan signers in this area so walmart signing agents arent even a blimp on my radar even though I do know of them.
Not this opinion doesnt apply to those who live in States that have a low cost of living compared to the DC area.
| Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 12/14/12 9:50am
Msg #446517
<<these $65 notaries don't have the polish or professionalism to be sent to many high end sophisticated clients>>
YOU HIT THE NAIL HEAD ON!
I have closed on too many loans where the BO was so frustrated with the previous nsa...I got stories to tell but won't since I know their names, but you all know who you are!!!
The saying is def true, especially in our profession...."YOU GET, WHAT YOU PAY FOR"!!
And yeah, they get fooled into thinking, as long as I am working, I'll take whatever....NO DUM A$$ IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY?
If these morons are not getting, at the very least, 10 closings a week, at $65, they're already setting themselves up for a loss, especially when they factor in all of the expenses and time that is involved in each and every closing!
| Reply by mrMike on 12/14/12 10:12am
Msg #446519
As an industry, we should figure out a way to combat this trend... basically cutting out the middleman signing services. These lowball prices are coming from signing services who want/need to take their cut. I know the new people feel forced to accept lower $$ just to get some money coming in... I know I do being new... but no one can run a business very long on $65 jobs..
| Reply by Teri_PA on 12/14/12 10:44am
Msg #446523
In my area, there are many that work for that fee. How do they do it? Well, they print on their employers's dime (if they need to print)...and do the closing on their way home from work. One closing a night as a part time gig. And, some of these people are very skilled. For these people, their costs are minimal...and it is a wonderful way to make extra money. Closings here are at 7 every night...Like clockwork. I could use 50 - 7 pm slots a night. Many lenders tell the borrowers they must close at night, because there are more notaries available. I've been doing this full time for a long, long time...
It all boils down to risk...How much risk is the vendor management company willing to take. I would venture that greater than 90% of the closings from lower priced notaries come in perfect. Some require some follow up from the title company, and only a very, very small percentage are actually screwed up enough. When you are running the volume they are running, they can accept defects for a fee reduction of $75-100 per order times thousands of orders a day....
We need to accept that many companies will hire NSA's at this fee and get people to work for this fee, because it meets their individual objectives. We need to run our businesses in the way that works for us. Some skilled people like high volume (and if you are in an area like NYC where you can walk from closing to closing, that might make sense and they can charge less). My area is all highway and tolls and bumper to bumper traffic and accidents...I sit in traffic jams for hours every day. I need to account for that time. Different area, different market, different needs.
I will never judge others for how they run their businesses. If it works, more power to you. This model just doesn't work for me or many others who do this full time.
| Reply by Pro Mobile Notary on 12/14/12 11:43am
Msg #446528
I am in no way defending or condoning the offering of lowball fees to anyone and I am in no way defending First National Signings with this post.
There are people out there that do not have enough money to feed their children adequately or pay their mortgage or utility bills. We have been in a lousy economy for more than five years and many people have exhausted all their personal resources.
There was a post recently on linkedin from a woman that defended her taking $65 signing assignments because she did not have enough money to turn the heat up in her house or pay her mortgage. She is the only working adult in her household because her husband and two adult children living at home were all laid off from their jobs.
She calculated her printing costs for 2 sets of docs and figured any assignment within 10 miles of her house (or last signing assignment she was traveling from) had enough profit in it for her to take those assignments as fill-in work between her other signing assignments that paid more. This by the way is a seasoned professional signing agent with more than 10-years experience as a notary signing agent and she does exceptional error-free work.
In this Holiday Season and challenging economic environment I think it would be nice if you had a bit more compassion and understanding that not everyone is in a position to turn away work that generates cash flow, income and keeps the lights and heat on in their home.
| Reply by Sandra Clark on 12/14/12 12:35pm
Msg #446530
Very well stated Pro. Have such a situation with a local notary here and can't fault her for doing what she has to do to provide for her family. I'm sure she gets the $100. + assignments also and she really needs them. I'm fortunate enough to be able to get the fees that I need and there are no major problems in being in the same area. More power to her.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/14/12 1:23pm
Msg #446532
Bingo Howard
"There are people out there that do not have enough money to feed their children adequately or pay their mortgage or utility bills. We have been in a lousy economy for more than five years and many people have exhausted all their personal resources."
That $65 puts gas in the car, maybe replaces a tire, feeds the family for a week - school lunches for the kids...SOMETHING...pays the dr bill knocking on the door...
As I said, I don't accept that fee as it's just not profitable for me - but put in their shoes, who knows what I'd do?? If I had NO food in my house and I was hungry, $65 is a blessing.
| Reply by ReneeK_MI on 12/14/12 1:53pm
Msg #446537
You also nailed it, Howard - well put.
I was remembering a time in a whole other life when I had to knock on my neighbor's door to borrow $5 for baby formula. Being dirt poor (as it turns out) is one heck of a valuable life lesson, particularly when you get to do it young.
As for all the times I've read opinions about how if we all "ban" (sic) together, the low paying co's will fall apart - no, they won't. Some are fly-by-night, but plenty of big names have been around at least a decade.
Also ... no, you don't always "get what you pay for" either. Not in our industry, nor in any other. That's so judgmental to assume that people end up in need only through circumstances that they somehow control.
| Reply by Marian_in_CA on 12/15/12 12:38pm
Msg #446637
I think the big problem with that it that the calculation only covers printing costs...
That's hardly the sole expense involved in a signing, Howard, and you know it. You still have TAXES, gas, insurance, internet, toner, power used through printing, and other related expenses. Each individual job we take has overhead expenses that go well beyond the simple cost of printing.
I also don't condemn those who take the lower paying jobs. They can do as they wish... I just don't see how they think it's possible.
I've sat down with several notaries and had them, literally, pull together ALL of their expenses involved in doing business. Every single one of them were shocked to realize that they were losing money or just breaking even by taking $65-$75 jobs. They may have thought they were feeding their family or paying their bills in the short term, but they could what they were really doing was setting themselves up for some serious problems down the road, a snowball effect. The biggest troublemaker of them all? The IRS. People, if you aren't taking 30-50% of all of your jobs and stashing it away to pay your taxes, you're asking for trouble down the road. I know so many notaries who take these low paying jobs and they are out of the business within a year... because they don't know how to make it work. They lack common business sense. They think like employees and not business owners.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 12/15/12 2:45pm
Msg #446647
I'm with you, Marian.
We understand the wolf at the door.
But, we also know that the $65-ers are digging a bigger hole to fall into and get into serious trouble. They cannot sustain their businesses and they should indeed start looking for a W-2 right now so that the income will be there regularly.
I remember my aunt throwing papers and babysitting to cover her bills for five kids while my uncle taught welding in the prison system. There are ways to make a buck that actually do turn a profit, but $65 jobs are not it.
I'm about to train my neighbor who is in his 70s to do general notary work. He has lost a contract and he needs a new stream of income. I can hook him up if he wants to work. (No, I will not be taking a cut.) I would never recommend that he would start doing loan signings for $65...but $6/click cash will amount to something if he will accept walk ups.
| Reply by Nixie/Ca on 12/14/12 3:20pm
Msg #446546
Good point ReneeK. I have been going back on forth on whether I should be accepting these low fees or not. I am new and it seems like a waste to go out for these jobs, but on the other hand its still money. I want experience and to do the best job I can, but I also don't want to lose money!
| Reply by Shan/CA on 12/14/12 8:16pm
Msg #446592
I too am new, and we have to start somewhere. For the most part a lot of the "high paying" companies want 2 and 4 years experience. Now, I am not going to drive to Egypt and print a ginormous amount of docs (times 2). I will take what I can get, I will not be USED, but I will work. At the end of the day I have children to feed and bills to pay. So Cal Edison and Mr. Gas Co don't want to hear any excuses, they want $$$.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 12/14/12 5:24pm
Msg #446563
If it came down to food, heat, and...
...a roof over my head - I would get a W-2 job that GUARANTEES a paycheck bi-weekly (or weekly). If that W2 job were at a fast food or retail establishment, so be it. I certainly wouldn't risk the uncertainty of IC work/payment. A $65 signing only nets a few bucks, if that. If the invoice now becomes a collection account, the NSA has just PAID the hiring party to do the loan signing. No thanks !!!
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/14/12 5:54pm
Msg #446569
You'd get a W-2 job - IF there's a job to be had
I had a heck of a time getting a 9-5 job - kept hearing they hired someone with more experience when really, bottom line was it was my age (with 25 years experience behind me it's kind of insulting that they thought I'd believe that).
My current boss gave me a chance, but believe me it took forever - and jobs around me here are scarce. There's NO work. So $65 is a blessing to some.
| Reply by LKT/CA on 12/14/12 6:47pm
Msg #446571
Re: You'd get a W-2 job - IF there's a job to be had
<<<So $65 is a blessing to some. >>>
Sorry, but I don't see a $65 fee as a "blessing". The NSA gets the signing IF their phone rings and IF they are available. Then they have to wait 45 - 90 days to see IF they get paid at all. I understand that getting a 9-5 takes time and didn't infer that it would happen overnight. The time in getting the 9-5 is ancillary to my point.
For whatever annoyances, headaches or stresses that accompany a W2 job, the employee can count on a paycheck. At a W2, you show up do the work, use the company's supplies/resources, and go home. With the signing, you use a lot of your own resources + wear and tear on vehicle and equipment with no guarantee you'll get paid, and these days we know what goes with lowball fees - lowball business SOPs and tactics which include but are not limited to:
slow/no pay and PLENTY of excuses
no live contact - only email
manufacturing of errors to reduce the signing fee
handholding, babysitting, micro-managing
extra services demanded that were not part of the original order
two loans when only told of one
loan package nearly the size of a ream of paper
triple digit round-trip travel
book signing with NSA then cancel for a $50 notary
etc., etc., and so forth
| Reply by LKT/CA on 12/14/12 6:50pm
Msg #446572
To add...
For those reasons mentioned, if in order to eat, there were the options of a W2 job or $65 signings, ***I*** would get the W2 job because I could count on a paycheck and not *hope* I don't get stiffed.
| Reply by bagger on 12/15/12 8:44am
Msg #446613
How many times have you heard "over-qualified?" n/m
| Reply by MW/VA on 12/14/12 7:49pm
Msg #446583
Two sides to that coin, IMO. What kind of slime co. is
only offering notaries $65 at this point.? I think they're as bad as everyone else taking advantage of people in desperate situations. A $65 fee--why not? How about the waitress or waiter that makes $2.13/hr. + tips, but isn't walking home at the end of the day with even $40. I know many of these folks who are single parents with rent, etc. to pay.
I wouldn't work for those fees, and don't condone those who offer or accept it. ;-(
| Reply by BobtheElder on 12/14/12 8:13pm
Msg #446590
Re: Two sides to that coin, IMO. What kind of slime co. is
It's a free market, but at least I'm free to turn them down.
| Reply by FormerEO on 12/15/12 1:47pm
Msg #446644
Re: Two sides to that coin, IMO. What kind of slime co. is
Only a cold and heartless person would condemn someone for trying to feed their children any way they can.
| Reply by Jessica R. Levine on 1/30/13 2:19pm
Msg #453144
While a majority of our work is loan packages, we do get requests for Subordination Agreements, Grant Deeds, Affidavits, etc. That is why the post said $65+. There is not a new business model for the company.
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