Posted by ikando on 2/24/12 11:29am
Msg #412880

Bank doesn't know difference between Jurat and Acknowledgmen

This must be a day for venting. Here's mine.

Couple needed me to notarize wife's signature because her work hours didn't allow her to go to the bank for a personal loan application. The app has no notarial verbiage, so husband calls to ask what form to use. He gets frustrated because they don't understand his question and he hands the phone to me.

I ask if they want me to have her swear to the information, or sign an acknowledgement. "We just want you to witness her signature." Repeat my question. "You're only going to witness her signature."

Finally, I give up, ask husband what he wants (wife's busy working) and stamp acknowledgment, have wife sign and notarize.

What can we do to get the people who want us to notarize signatures to understand there are protocols we must follow? They give us a plethora of instruction to follow for their docs, but can't tell us which form we need to complete the notarization.

Sheesh!

Reply by Jillian Hinrichs on 2/24/12 11:43am
Msg #412883

If they only want you to witness the signature, that is what an acknowledgement is for. They just want proof that the person who signed is the person showing within the document. A Jurat is for when they want the person to swear that the information contained within the document is correct, to the best of their knowledge and belief, and is most often used for affidavits. It is frustrating that they don't understand what we do, but not surprising.

Reply by ikando on 2/24/12 12:14pm
Msg #412890

My point, exactly.

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 2/24/12 12:21pm
Msg #412891

Jillian - UPL if we tell them. n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 2/24/12 1:21pm
Msg #412899

Most people don't know what a notary does, let alone what an

ack & jurat are! LOL I know it's UPL for us to choose, but rule of thumb would be if it is just to witness the signature or whether they're swearing to something (affidavit or deposition).

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 2/24/12 3:10pm
Msg #412922

Re: Most people...that's not my rule of thumb.... n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 2/24/12 1:52pm
Msg #412905

My .02 FWIW

If they kept stressing they just want me to witness the signature, then that's all I do...

I sign as a witness on the witness signature line - if no witness line I make one...but there will be no notarial cert attached unless they tell me what the heck they want. If all they want is a witness that's all they get - they don't need my stamp for that.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 2/24/12 3:16pm
Msg #412925

Most people have no idea what an acknowledgment is is... and forget about jurat.

I think you make this too difficult for yourself. Here's what I always say... and almost always* works:

"There are two main types of notarizations from which to choose. The first is where I verify your identity and you acknowledge to me to that signature is yours. That signature may or may not be done in front of me.

The second is similar, but it is done under oath where you are swearing to the contents of the document, as if you were in court. Those must be signed in my presence."

*Most of the time, that's all they need... and most of the time they say that they just want the acknowledgment. Once in a while I get asked the dreaded 'which is better' question, but that's when I tell them that state law prohibits me from giving my opinion or choosing and if they aren't sure what to do, they need to go back to the document author/requestor for help. That' rare, though.

Reply by Priscilla Witman on 2/24/12 3:26pm
Msg #412928

I sometimes get asked "which one is more legal". I tell them that's not for me to decide. One DIY-divorcing couple was deciding how to split assets and was told they needed something drafted and notarized. Before the husband arrived, the wife asked, "Which one will look better for ME in court?" I was speechless. I just told her I couldn't decide that for THEM, showed her my blank certificates, and told her it was up to them to choose. Some people are just ignorant (and most non-notaries, non-RE-agents, non-lawyers are) and some just want $10 legal advice. :/

Reply by Karla/OR on 2/24/12 6:06pm
Msg #412947

I'm greatful for the various jurat/ack explanations for this post. In defense of the public that has no clue as to what a jurat vs. an ack is, neither did I before becoming a notary. And even then, I looked and looked for what I considered a good explanation of both - that made sense to me and that I could explain to clients at appointments WHEN ASKED questions about them. However, I'm shocked that a bank did not know the difference! Thanks everyone.

Reply by Buddy Young on 2/24/12 8:14pm
Msg #412965

Have you ever done an acknowlegement in a loan package when you know it should have been a jurat?

Reply by RickG/CA on 2/25/12 9:26am
Msg #413010

love the lender forms that say "Subscibed and sworn...

and does acknowledge before me..."

that's where I state something similar, just not as eloquently, to what Marian states and mutter profanities under my breath.

Reply by jnew on 2/25/12 12:52pm
Msg #413032

Re: love the lender forms that say "Subscibed and sworn...

I think it is a language problem. Most people (and a lot of notarys public) don't understand what the word acknowledgment means. Then to add to the problem, as previously stated, that certain companies will "customize" their notarial language to require the elements of a jurat and acknowledgment in the same paragraph. The key is to look for the code words of a jurat and see if they have been included in the acknowledgment. If the paragraph uses the words "sworn" "witnessed" "subscribed" it is no longer an acknowledgment since it requires a witnessing of the signature and/or an oath to be taken. When I worked for a title company, I had heard some of the closers trying to explain the acknowledgment to a customer. One of them said, " the acknowledgment is my statement that I witnessed you signing this document" All I could do was shake my head.