Posted by Claudine Osborne on 2/14/12 8:12pm
Msg #411798

GNW

I received a call for GNW to go to a shut in to notarize a POA..I asked the usual questions..Is the singer fully aware of what they are signing, is she coherent, ID etc. Each question I asked the son answered yes. We set an appointment time and I state my fee.

Upon arriving today I was taken to see the signer. I said hello and offered my hand to her..She showed no signs of even being aware that I was there! I start talking and again nothing. I asked her if she knew why I was there and she was very quiet and said No I don't know you! I can tell she wasnt aware of her surroundings let alone what she is about to sign! He starts talking to her telling her what it was..Again no response. The son is getting angry saying "She will never get better she will only get worse she has to sign this today".. I politely explain that I cannot notarize this and explain my role. Son states he knew this was going to happen..and he wants to know if I should be paid? Yes! He hands me the money and tells me to leave...I quickly got the heck our of there..He creeped me out!

He knew this was going to hapen yet he lied to me on the phone to get a notary there to try and get this notarized..He may well succeed in getting this notarized but it wont be my me!

Reply by MW/VA on 2/14/12 9:10pm
Msg #411808

Sorry you had that experience, Claudine. These are often desperate situations & they are stressful for the family. They often have no idea what to do. When it reaches that point they have to go to court to have the person declared incompetent. I, for one, hope I never find myself in that situation.
I know it's been discussed before, but it is important to have documents in order well ahead of a crisis.
If I had a choice, I would never want to put anyone through that.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/14/12 9:32pm
Msg #411809

As you know, this is a frequent challenge, especially with POA signings. It's to the point where I advise them in advance that my travel/service fee will apply regardless of whether or not I'm able to complete the notarization(s). I also may refer to ID issues or competence as the issues that may be a cause of not being able to proceed.

I agree with MW/VA that it's very sad that people leave these things until it's too late. But that's no reason for us to proceed if it's clear that the person has no clue about what they're signing.

Reply by John Tennant on 2/14/12 9:49pm
Msg #411810

Upon leaving I would have immediately contacted social services and any other agency in your state that protects seniors.

JMHO

Reply by Sha/CA on 2/14/12 11:24pm
Msg #411815

Good suggestion, John. n/m

Reply by Belinda/CA on 2/14/12 11:39pm
Msg #411818

Be careful to not always assume the worst though. People

with legitimate reasons may be trying to help the signer. We cannot allow this to happen of course. There is no way a notary should sign under those conditions. DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND. I am simply putting it out there that we cannot assume everyone is up to no good. I have seen a friend of mine try desparately and irrationally to get a POA so she could help her Mom keep her house during her Mom's prolonged serious illness. No other reason. (She did not end up with a POA) Thank goodness the Mom got well before foreclosure, caught up on her bills, and did give her daughter POA before her illness came out of remission. She was happy her daughter had tried to help her. A little food for thought.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/15/12 6:36am
Msg #411826

Belinda - agree 100%

*I am simply putting it out there that we cannot assume everyone is up to no good.*

I think we can thank the great xyz for making every other word "fraud". They have changed our notary culture and perception of our duties.

Reply by BrendaTx on 2/15/12 6:39am
Msg #411827

ps I would not have notarized the document, either. n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 2/15/12 7:17am
Msg #411829

I agree. I would have walked away, also. Regardless of how

much empathy I might have, I can't notarize in a situation like that.

Reply by ikando on 2/15/12 8:12am
Msg #411831

Another thing to consider--witnesses. Most POAs that I've encountered require 2 witnesses.

I've had a couple of situations where a person (sometimes family, sometimes not) wanted a POA signed. I've had to turn them down because caretakers who were aware of the signer's condition let me know that they didn't believe the signer was capable. Although the caretakers, particularly staff at nursing/hospital facilities are not allowed to be witnesses in the facilities, they can often give you clues as to the state of the signer's capacity.

And I've learned through experience that the caller needs to be made aware that REGARDLESS

Reply by ikando on 2/15/12 8:16am
Msg #411832

Re: GNW - to finish sentence

regardless of whether I notarize the document, my travel fee is to be paid. And if I must wait for witnesses to be rounded up, I have a fee for waiting more than 15 minutes.

Reply by 101livescan on 2/15/12 8:26am
Msg #411833

I received a call from a gentleman who told me his attorney recommended me to him...I'd never heard of the attorney. The caller's father was in the Altzheimer's unit of an assisted care facility near my home. I met him at Starbucks. He told me he was trying to get a property vesting in his name so he could sell the property and get his dad out of the facility and into a spare room he was building at his home, but needed the money to care for Dad in home.

I asked him how on a scale of 1:10 his dad fell in his Altzheimer condition. He said "7". Oh boy. I told him I couldn't believe his attorney would recommend me as a notary who would notarize his father's signature given his mental soundness.

I don't know whatever happened with that document, I guess the attorney felt the client should give it a shot, since it was his last resort.

If there are siblings, they might object to one of their own taking this action. Client said his sister was well healed and their father and she were estranged. Doesn't mean she couldn't come back on it, feeling part of the proceeds of the sale of the property is part hers too.

We will get asked to do these things from time to time, and good, sound judgement, just plain old common sense, must be used in these circumstances.

This is certainly not an area where I would leave myself vulnerable to revocation of my commission I've held for more than 40 years, and to be sitting in a court hearing trying to explain my poor decision as a notary professional to a judge in town I probably know already, completely invalidating my credibility and "soundness of mind."

Reply by janCA on 2/15/12 9:01am
Msg #411841

This has happened to me on numerous occasions even though I ask the pertinent questions. As stated above, I think people just get downright desperate. I had a wife call me and said her husband had cancer but he was fully aware, they had just found out about a month prior. I get to the residence and sit down at the table, fully expecting the man to come sit down. The wife states, no, he is bedridden (oh, crap) so come into the bedroom. This poor man was actually on his death bed and as I entered the room she was lifting him from his pillow. He was a shell of a man and just had a hollow look. He had no idea I was even there.

Of course I couldn't notarize and speaking further with the wife she said that she was afraid that the previous wife would try to come after assets. I plainly stated she needed to seek counsel.

I had someone call me just a few weeks ago, again, a case of just finding out a couple of weeks prior that her mother had cancer and she was in a home on a ventilator and that she couldn't talk but was fully aware and she could nod her head. She also stated she would be able to sign her name. I said that I would come and if the circumstances were such that I did not feel comfortable notarizing, that the travel fee still applied. And then I quoted my fee, which I thought was very reasonable for traveling to another town just less than 20 miles away. I also asked her if she sought legal counsel for this POA and she stated no. She balked at the fee, so I said there are mobile notaries in your areas, it might be a good idea to give one of them a call. I told her to go onto NR to find one. She thanked me and I never heard from her again. Thank goodness.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 2/15/12 8:52am
Msg #411839

We often see people in all kinds of mental states. I had one yesterday where the wife was in the Alzheimers section of a local assisted living home. The husband needed permission to take $20,000 out of their savings to pay for her acommodations and an aide to stay stay with her at night. It was costing him $11,000 a month. I observed the interaction between the two of them. She refused to sign because she knew that $20,000 was a lot of money and she wasn't convinced that he needed the money. He has a POA for her, but the bank refused to honor it. They wanted her notarized signature on the document.

Reply by janCA on 2/15/12 9:11am
Msg #411842

I had one like that Shoshana too, but the mother did not have Alzheimers, and I can't recall the name of the disease, but the mother could not talk, so when she wanted to get someone's attention, she would "scream". The daughter had a fully completed, notarized POA for her mother but the bank wanted their own document signed and notarized in order for funds to be released to the daughter. I did notarize the mother's signature, she seemed very competent, but as I was writing the information in my book, all of a sudden the mother lets out this very loud scream, so loud it made me jump and I think my heart skipped about 50 beats. The mother wanted a kleenex from the other side of the bed and her daughter was filling out the form from the bank, so this is how she got her attention.

Reply by MrEd_Ca on 2/15/12 10:43am
Msg #411849

Re: GNW --- be careful out there!

About two months ago, I received a call from a deputy with the county sheriffs department inquiring about a notarization I had done at a care facility over a year before (in December, 2010) . I had to call him back with the details & after verifying that he really was with the sheriffs dept.

The notarization was of an amendment to a trust, a one page document but not a POA. According to the deputy, a complaint had been lodged by a relative who had a letter from a doctor declaring the signer legally incompetent two months before the notarization. At the time, the signer seemed totally cognizant ect ect. I had no reason to believe otherwise & I had no reason to believe I was being hoodwinked. The signer’s daughter & granddaughter were both present & they said nothing regarding the signers ‘issues’. I had asked both of them about ‘competency issues’ before meeting the signer.

The deputy asked me, among other things, if I had obtained a thumbprint --- I had but it was not required by the state for this particular document. He seemed impressed that I had the print.

About a week later, I phoned the deputy back with some more information. I had found my journal with the information & notes I had taken -- a lot of times I use my journal as a notebook with, in addition to the required data, notes on what happened should I need to recall it for, say, a deputy sheriff in the property crimes division. The deputy told me that the investigation had been dropped because it seemed to him that the relative who hired me was in fact looking out for the best interests of the signer. The complainant was, I surmised, a disgruntled relative. He also said that the daughter, the person who had hired me, had also had two other documents notarized after mine. (‘Good’ I thought at hearing this, ‘I won’t be alone in the courtroom’.) The deputy said that the two other notary’s had thought the signer competent as well. He did mention the letter of incompetence, but seemed to discount it but he did not say why. His final words were something like he ‘had typed up more than 40 pages regarding the investigation when I realized it was coming to nothing’. His conclusion was that the relative who hired me was in fact looking out for the signers best interests, and that the investigation had been dropped ‘as so many of these are’.

Now, before I go to a rest home or similar location, I ask if the person phoning has a Letter of Competence from the signer’s doctor to sign legal documents such as the one’s they want signed. I figure it would be as easy for them to get this document as a prescription for medication. I have only asked two callers, one of which complied with my request & the other never phoned me back. I don’t think this is the best way to handle rest home/nursing home situations, but I do know that I don’t want to talk to that sheriff’s deputy again.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 2/15/12 1:45pm
Msg #411873

Re: GNW - be careful with witnesses too

I know there was a recent discussion about witnesses and whether we as notaries should be concerned about the suitability of a witness, especially if the witness is a relative, but there can be issues with non-relative witnesses as well.

Just last week I performed some notarizations at a skilled care facility and one of the documents had a requirement for two witnesses and required the witness signatures to be notarized. An attorney had prepared the documents and was present at the signing so he served as one witness and we rounded up a 2nd witness at the facility.

A gentleman agreed to serve as a witness, but it turned out he was an alzheimer's patient, which was brought to my attention by the health care personnel at the facility before I even had a chance to speak to him or check his ID. Luckily we were able to find another witness (a family member of another resident) and the notarizations were completed.

As mentioned by other posters, I always talk about ID requirements and ask about mental competency during the initial call to set the appointment. I make it clear that a travel fee will be charged even if I am unable to complete the notarizations due to issues with ID, competency, or witness requirements.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 2/15/12 4:04pm
Msg #411889

One place I will not go ...

I will not provide service to any person who is a patient in a memory-care facility. <- period.

In my opinion - no doubt shaded by personal experience - admitting someone to a memory care facility isn't done at the drop of a hat. Someone with a medical degree and WAY more knowledge than I have, made a determination that was backed by plenty of other professionals that this person doesn't have the capacity to be left home alone (that would equal diminished capacity).

I run the conversation through my head - the judge says "And you KNEW this signer was a patient in a memory-care facility, did you think it was for chicken-pox, or that they just liked the accomodations?"

Reply by Karla/OR on 2/15/12 4:44pm
Msg #411893

It's great to be reminded of these potential situations and how they were handled - keeps the info fresh in our minds. Thanks everyone!

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/15/12 6:51pm
Msg #411899

<<<He knew this was going to hapen yet he lied to me on the phone to get a notary there to try and get this notarized..He may well succeed in getting this notarized but it wont be my me!>>

I guess people take a desperate chance and believe the notary will just notarize anyway since you've made the trip. That is so annoying - it results in nothing and wastes everyone's time.

A few years ago, when I did a lot of notarizing at nursing homes and rehabilitation centers, the family member would lie about the patient's ID being current. They'd tell me over the phone that the ID was current. But when I arrived on scene, the ID was expired and not issued within five years (CA rule). The elderly signer stopped driving years ago and the family never bothered to get them a senior ID card.

I had this problem so frequently that I started requiring callers to tell me the full expiration date (only) from the ID - which would (1) force the ID to be in their hand; and (2) to actually LOOK at the ID instead of guessing if it's current. I haven't had problems with that lately but a few years ago, "something" must have been in the water because it seemed like every other appointment to a nursing home was a wasted trip.