Posted by DawnW/IN on 2/29/12 4:53am
Msg #413464

Jr. vs III

Have a CA Interspousal Transfer Grant Deed. Document has Jr. but ID says III. Signer doesn't have any documents that have Jr except for an expired passport. What would be the best way to resolve this?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 2/29/12 5:13am
Msg #413465

According to West's Encyclopedia of American Law (2nd Ed., V. 6) definition for Junior:
<quote>
Younger; subsequently born or created; later in rank, tenure, preference, or position.

[Omitting stuff about junior liens.]

When used in a proper name, junior or its abbreviation, Jr., is merely descriptive and not part of the individual's legal name. The absence of the term at the end of a name has no legal consequences. A signature that omits the description is still valid.
<endquote>

So perhaps the deed can be redrawn to not mention Jr or III.

I've looked into this, and I'm convinced that names in America are controlled mostly by custom, and only slightly by law. According to Martin, Judith, Miss Manners Guide to Excruciatingly Correct Behavior (Freshly Updated), New York: W. W. Norton, 2005, pp. 54-5, "The oldest LIVING William Wellborn is numberless, and one starts counting from there" (my emphasis). Martin goes on to acknowledge that in many families men keep their suffixes changed even when ancestors die. You can find similar advice in the Chicago Manual of Style, 14th ed. (but the latest edition doesn't mention it). Also similar advice in Post, Elizabeth L. Emily Post's Etiquette (14th ed.) New York: Harper & Row. 1984. p. 19-20.

I would accept ID giving III combined with a death certificate for the father or grandfather, in the absence of any evidence of a discrepancy. HOWEVER, there IS a discrepancy; for the passport to be expired, the signer has been known as Jr. for at least 5 years (child's passport; 10 for an adult). So why the heck hasn't it been changed on the ID. I would insist on a satisfactory explanation for not updating the ID or refuse to notarize.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 2/29/12 8:26am
Msg #413476

I disagree

Suffixes such as Jr. or III are a part of a person's legal name if they are stated on the person's birth certificate. Under the terms of the Real ID Act a person who has a suffix such as Jr. or III on the birth certificate MUST have that suffix on their Driver License. When there is a Sr/Jr/III discrepancy this, in many cases, throws up a red flag.

My stepfather and his son have the same name, but his son is a "Jr.". He looks like his dad and he - successfully - was able to get alcohol as a teenager using his dad's ID (he is in his 20s now).

Reply by desktopfull on 2/29/12 10:27am
Msg #413494

I agree with Robert & others.

My grandfather is the original, my father is the junior, my brother is the III, and my nephew is the IV, and that's their legal names on their birth certificates. Four totally different people whom I am certain would not want one of the others signing for them with a claim that oops the name is wrong on my ID. The Deed or Id need to be fixed, that is how you prevent fraud from happening.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/1/12 5:08am
Msg #413593

Looking at birth certificates bad way to decide about suffix

It has been suggested by Robert before that because some birth certificates have a space for a suffix near the name, the suffix must be part of the name. I disagree

Look at http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-07-99-00570.pdf and see there are more than 14,000 styles of birth certificate in circulation in the USA. No general statement applicable to the whole country about birth certificates is possible, because there are so many different kinds.

One birth certificate, suggested by the Centers for Disease Control but only in effect if states decide to adopt it, is described at http://oig.hhs.gov/oei/reports/oei-07-99-00570.pdf

That 2003 revision certificate does put the suffix in the name field. But the prior revision had no space for a suffix. The panel that revised the certificate did not have any lawyers; it consisted of doctors, statisticians, and administrators. Their report offers no explanation of why the suffix was added.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/1/12 9:28am
Msg #413604

The name on your birth certificate is your legal name until

you change it... by marriage, court order, common law name change, whatever.

If you are designated a "Jr." at birth, you will be a "Jr." until you die.

This nonsense of becoming a "Sr." when Jr.'s father dies, is maybe something that was done in the 1800s but would never be done today without a court order.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/1/12 10:42am
Msg #413609

Ignore pronouncements by notaries who do not offer proof. n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/1/12 3:23pm
Msg #413643

What is YOUR proof? A dictionary entry? n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/1/12 4:14pm
Msg #413651

Re: What is YOUR proof? A dictionary entry?

I will presume describing West's Encyclopedia of American Law as a "dictionary" was only due to the limited number of characters on a subject line, although the resulting description isn't very accurate. I really don't know where you would find a better general summary of the situation in the 50 states and several territories.

Of course, a huge document with citations from laws and court decisions from each state/territory would be better, but I can't find such a document.

Another source is the Department of Homeland Security's Minimum Standards for Driver's Licenses and Identification Cards available at

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/08-140.htm

This rule comments on the lack of agreement on what a full legal name is, saying among other things "Numerous States and AAMVA stated that there is no standard naming convention for Federal agencies and as a result passports, immigration documents, and social security cards list disparate names, making identifying the full legal name difficult."

After discussing the numerous problems, the definition they finally adopt is "Full legal name means an individual's first name, middle name(s), and last name or surname, without use of initials or nicknames." Note the absence of anything about a suffix in the definition.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/1/12 5:06pm
Msg #413660

Oregon DMV on suffixes

According to the Oregon DMV website about identity and legal presence at

http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/DMV/faqs/sb1080.shtml#Full

"Can I add or omit a suffix (e.g. Sr, Jr, I, II, III)?
A suffix may be removed or added upon verbal request, even if it appears or doesn't appear on proof of legal presence and/or current full legal name."

Translation: one's suffix is whatever one says one's suffix is.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/1/12 6:47pm
Msg #413679

OK... and the SSA considers your legal name to be just your

first and last name.

Do what you want. I just hope your "Encyclopedia of American Law" will stand up in court when you're sitting before a judge.

Reply by Larry/IL on 2/29/12 8:38am
Msg #413479

I believe VT is incorrect. I am a Jr. It on my birth certificate and on my notary stamp. My state requires I use it for notarial work! Jr and II are the same but should be used the way they were given. III is not a Jr. I have heard of many instances and have personally seen individuals trying to commit fraud by omitting or using the suffix.

Reply by LKT/CA on 2/29/12 9:37am
Msg #413492

Agree with Robert and Larry

Junior is not the same as III. Based on the OP's scenario, I would not notarize.