Posted by GOLDGIRL/CA on 2/17/12 12:28pm
Msg #412090

Stereotyping

Engineers, hands down, are the pickiest, most-involved, most time-consuming signers around, beating lawyers, CPAs, auditors, government contract overseers, tax workers and anybody else whose job involves paperwork minutia and who we might think would spend some extra time looking at loan docs.

This has always been my secret observation, but last week a jovial LO (yes, ocasionally you'll run across one of those) asked me what borrower I thought was the "worst" and before I could say anything, he said: "engineers!"

Of course, we want picky when it comes to building bridges and airplanes.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 2/17/12 12:39pm
Msg #412091

I think teachers are the worst. They are "readers". I kid my daughter all the time that I feel sorry for the person closing her loan. lol Living in a large military area also, I find that a high ranking officer can be a pita. I had a lady officer one time that kept signing her name wrong. What? We had to switch out about 6 pages. AND... she reports directly to the pentagon. I left that night thinking our country is in sad shape.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 2/17/12 12:53pm
Msg #412097

Yes, teachers can be bad .. but many can be brought down to earth if thngs get out of control. Engineers are beyond any control. And yes, the more "up-there" one is - like president of a company, movie star, or like you said, military bigwig - the more scattered, off-topic, and unfocused they seem to be (more sterotyping).
I just signed a brain surgeon who could barely perform the most basic of signing tasks. Among other things, he couldn't get the date right. I finally wrote it out in big numbers on a peice of paper and put it in front of him so he could refer to it. He was grateful. After the nightmare signing, he flew out of the house for an appt. His wife apologized, saying he was always like that because he was" under a lot of stress." No kidding. I felt sorry for his patients.

Reply by Dorothy_MI on 2/17/12 12:44pm
Msg #412093

Yes, and Software engineers are the worst of the lot when it comes to picky AND reading!

Reply by LindaD/NJ on 2/17/12 12:46pm
Msg #412094

ALWAYS engineers for me!

Reply by Buddy Young on 2/17/12 12:47pm
Msg #412095

Re: I agree GoldGirl, I had one once n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 2/17/12 12:54pm
Msg #412098

Yes, engineers, & my brother is one. He overthinks everything!!! LOL
I think teachers are 2nd (my sister-in-law is one, LOL) because they act like they're taking a test & going to get a grade. LOL

Reply by Susan Fischer on 2/17/12 1:32pm
Msg #412105

SO TRUE, GG. Dad's one of ~those~ and in the refi'ing

of my sister's place, has driven the Lender, Title, and moi, bonkers with his analyses of every number, every word, and every possibility.

Got a throw pillow from a catalog: "Never, ever, argue with an Engineer." I've considered tattooing the admonition on his forehead, but can't figure out how not to get busted...guess I should consult an Engineer?

Reply by Lee/AR on 2/17/12 1:41pm
Msg #412106

Arguing with an engineer is like wresting with a pig in the mud.
After a while, you realize the pig likes it.

(Actually, I read this in the tax assessor's office, where 'assessor' replaced engineer.)

Reply by Art_MD on 2/17/12 1:47pm
Msg #412107

Re: Stereotyping - response f/engineer

Most engineers have been burned at one time or another on projects. Mainly in the 200+ pages of specs. or contract wording. One or two missed word can cost many $$$s. i.e $3M electical bid from sub who deliniated exactly what he was supplying and excluded everything else. Buried in the specs was a very strict testing procedure not covered in the sub's quote. That testing cost $200,000. Get burned once or twice for big bucks and you read everything multiple times.

Art

Reply by bob/IA on 2/17/12 3:31pm
Msg #412121

Re: Stereotyping - response f/engineer

I once had a borrower that was reading every word, I looked at him and asked "how long have you been an engineer?" he looked up and asked "how did you know", told him engineers are the only ones who ever read each word of the docs. His wife about fell on the floor laughing.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/17/12 3:58pm
Msg #412126

Re: Stereotyping - response f/engineer

Not only that, I once heard someone say that most of an engineer's job is to find what's wrong with something. They're trained that way. They also have to be extremely detail oriented.

As for the rest of the comments about other generic categories of people, I think it depends on the individual. I can think of many exceptions to every single one. If I tried real hard, I might be able to remember an engineer who was an exception, but that's pretty iffy... (And none come to mind right now.)

For some reason, engineers seem to represent a high percentage of the borrowers I'm meeting lately. I guess their personality types go along with taking good care of their finances and making conservative financial decisions - plus most of them make pretty good money.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 2/17/12 8:08pm
Msg #412137

Re: Stereotyping; biased sample

The engineers that notary signing agents see is not a fair sample. They only see the ones who don't hire a lawyer to handle the closing, and need a mortgage.

Reply by Chuckd80/NJ on 2/17/12 9:11pm
Msg #412142

Re: Stereotyping; biased sample

In in experience, I would have to say Auditors(Accountants).

Reply by CJ on 2/18/12 12:17am
Msg #412156

Thoughts on Engineers and teachers.

. . . and the more engineers read the documents, they more confused and upset they get because it is in legaleze, not "engineer-eze", and they slow down even more.

One time I went a house and they had museum swags around the lawn (like, "don't walk here"). I knocked on the door and I noticed not one piece of gravel or leaf was out of place. When the guy opened the door, I said, "Are you an engineer?" He said, "Is it that obvious?".

About teachers reading, I notice that it is usually elementary school teachers that read. I think they are used to being the smartest person in the room, so they must think that they are smarter than everyone all the time. Jr. High and High School teachers I think are so beat-up by the kids that they don't really fret about it any more, and they have a "to heck with it" attitude. When an elementary school teacher reads, they have a special posture they assume: They hold the paper up and look down their nose at it intently, and hold their pencil horizontal next to the paper to keep track of what line they are on.

One time a signed the Chair of the English Department at the college. She gave me TERRIBLE directions how to find her office - you would think a Chair of the English Department would be more articulate. She picked up her RED pen, assumed the teacher position (paper aloft, look over her glasses and down her nose, pen held horizonally to keep track of the lines) and started marking all over the paper CORRECTING the verbage in the documents! I told her she couldn't do that! She glared at me like I was a slug who didn't even had a college edcuation and her Chair is in the Ivory Towers. I forget what she said, but I withered at it, and sat there quietly for two hours while she sabotaged her loan with her brilliance.

The worst reader I ever met was a man who TAUGHT ENGINEERING! Yikes! Two-in-one! He read the Note for an hour. He did not want to sign it because of "Paragraph 9" (boilerplate gobbledy-gook - I counldn't figure it out either, but it looked like something that would never come up). I HAD to go to my next appointment. It was 1:00 in the afternoon on a Saturday. I said, "These docs expire at midnight. When you finish reading them, call me, and I will be back. But you have to call me BEFORE midnight. I cannot come after midnight. He was thrilled (so was I). At my next appointment, I asked what the man did. He said he was a bank attorney. I asked him what Paragraph 9 meant on the Note. He said, "Oh that's so old, we never do that any more". Of coures he signed without incident. I kept calling the engineer throughout the afternoon and evening, and he said he was "still not done reading it.". At 11:00 pm he said he was ready to sign. He signed like the wind. Once the figures were right, he could have signed with his eyes shut and it would not have made any difference. (I didn't mind coming back - it beats sitting there from 1:00 to 11:00.)

I have NEVER had anyone read everything and actually FIND something that prevents them from signing. They ALL sign. I tell them,"Now you have to come with me to every signing and tell the people that you already read it and it's okay."

(I did have an elderly woman reading the DOT say to her husband, "Oh look: they took out the paragraph that says you can't sell to Jews or Blacks". So not only was she reading it, but she had read it so often that she know what is said. So why was she reading it AGAIN!!!!)

Reply by JanetK_CA on 2/18/12 8:25pm
Msg #412285

About teachers

I've had different luck with teachers than many of you. Last night was the latest example. She teaches 2nd grade and he teaches HS. This signing might have been an aberration because we signed at a parent's house, where a children's party was going on, but for the first time in my career, I had two individuals signing the same document at the same time! They even teamed up to fill out the hated Statement of Information doc!! I was impressed! Super nice couple, too.

I've had lots of good luck with teachers over the years, but when you get to the university level, I think you're sometimes dealing with a different type of character - like the one with the red pen. I don't think I would have sat through watching her red-line a whole loan package that was only going to get tossed. I probably would have told her that her loan wouldn't fund if she made marks on it, rather than advising what she "couldn't" do. (Authority figures hate to be told stuff like that...) And if she insisted, I'd immediately be on the phone to whomever I could reach.

I did run into a similar situation once (also with a college professor, I believe). He found fault with the grammar in the DOT, I believe, which I'd never paid much attention to before. Instead of trying to reason with him (and I think he was probably right, after all), I just agreed with him, clucked my tongue and joined him in a moment of head shaking about what a shame it is these days that people don't know grammar anymore - even attorneys - blah, blah, blah, and how observant he must be, as he was the first person who ever caught that in all the thousands of times I've presented that document to people, etc. Once appropriately flattered, he went on to sign the rest of the package without incident... Arguing with borrowers is sometimes a futile effort.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 2/18/12 5:29am
Msg #412159

My engineer that needed a new profession ...

Yes, totally agree - they're totally stereotypical. Given that, it is the only reason I will check the 1003 for a clue, when I'm tightly scheduled! One day, I see I'm off to meet an engineer (mentally preparing myself appropriately). House is on the disheveled side (atypical), guy reminds me a bit like Tweak from South Park (atypical - kind of 'frenzied' and also disheveled). We sit down and he says right out of the gate "I don't want to read anything, I don't care - just show me where to sign." I said "Aren't you an engineer?"

He puts the pen down, throws his head back, hands to his head and says "YES, and I HATE it! Those people drive me CRAZY!! I need a new job!"

Yeah.

I found this guy a long time ago - "Cooking for Engineers". You have to appreciate the little 'spreadsheet' table-thingie at the end of each recipe. Here's the link to his approach to the very basic green bean casserole:

http://tinyurl.com/2bdco5x