Posted by BrendaTx on 7/28/12 9:34am
Msg #428439
Online Notarization Ramblings of the Day
-How private are the records of a Virginia notary supposed to be? Is it okay to flow notarizations through a third party platform? Is there a security requirement for those platforms? Has this even been addressed?
-Keeping records - Notaries are supposed to keep their audio/video records for five years. When they are using a "platform" such as one of those that is operating online now, how much control does the electronic/webcam notary have over those records?
-What methods of ID are those platforms using to satisfy the requirements of:
1 - Reliance on prior inperson identity proofing by a third party such as an employer, a law firm, or a bank. Otherwise known as antecedent proofing, this
security standard relies upon a prior trust relationship having been created between the signer and a third party. This standard is gaining wide application in electronic commerce. (Method description is from page 9 of the Va. Notary handbook.)
2- The signer has a digital certificate that is authenticated either by (i) biometrics or
(ii) a Personal Identity Verification (PIV) or PIVI card issued in conformance with strict government standards from the National Institute of Standards and Technology. The use of PIV and PIVI cards is becoming more prevalent in the public and private sectors. This is as trustworthy and reliable a security standard as can be found currently. The federal government uses this standard in issuing identifications to federal employees and government contractors as well for trusting the identity of emergency first responders. (Method description is from page 9 of the Va. Notary handbook.)
I'm in Texas, so I have very little voice in Virginia...but my mind is so full of questions.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 7/28/12 9:36am
Msg #428440
"Is there a security requirement for those platforms? Has this even been addressed? "
I understand that the platform is supposed to be "secure" but what about those who have access to this information...the workers, the IT people...do they have to have any kind of background check?
| Reply by FGX/NJ on 7/28/12 12:34pm
Msg #428458
Brenda
Two weeks ago I faxed the NN website page and also a copy of their affiliate program to the NC Notary Div. asking if his was legal under their webcam law.
No reply.
I would like to see them deluged with requests from Notaries all over the country, as to the legality using 3rd, 4th parties.
NN uses Dynamic KBA to ID customers. They say only the person would know the answer to the questions,
However this information is culled from PUBLIC records which can be obtained by anyone who knows how to do it. There are services available online that will provide access to all public records. LexisNexis for exxample.
| Reply by FGX/NJ on 7/28/12 12:35pm
Msg #428459
Sorry ment Va Notary div
| Reply by BrendaTx on 7/28/12 1:54pm
Msg #428463
Notary services will be provided by corporations.
I do not sit up at night worrying about this because this is not my livelihood.
However, it should be noted that although the laws discuss electronic notaries and not the companies that create the "secure online platform," this is no longer about 'a notary' and the online services that a notary can provide. The companies are already there and they are operating and nobody is questioning it.
Unchecked, this will soon evolve into nationwide notary service companies that employ or contract with notaries to duplicate customer service call centers.
It's just sad.
I don't care what our notary laws say about not allowing online notarizations in our own states, this affects every notary in the U.S.
Technology and greed are winning.
| Reply by Lee/AR on 7/28/12 4:24pm
Msg #428473
Got any ideas on how to fight this apparent trend?
Me, neither. The bad guys win when the good guys do nothing, but, like the refi bubble that burst and left the country in a shambles....seems like the bad guys are in control and aren't about to 'fix' anything.
I have bombarded my SOS--tho' I have no idea what they can do beyond saying "you can't do that here"--but haven't even gotten a response. So, this will just keep on rolling along until it's everywhere. Then, how do you stop it? Somewhere, somehow, like a runaway train, it'll crash, but, oh, the damage!
| Reply by BrendaTx on 7/28/12 5:28pm
Msg #428476
Re: Got any ideas on how to fight this apparent trend?
*The bad guys win when the good guys do nothing,*
Exactly.
There are so many loose ends to this thing that it is hard to know where to start.
Frankly, I think that the Commonwealth of Virginia is the key...to either repeal this law until it is clear what its intent is, or to clarify it to notaries.
Not because *we* don't like it, but because I'm not sure that they ever intended for their notaries to be notarizing documents in other states; turning over their records to corporate employers, relying on Dynamic KBA for ID, and charging a rate set by a WEBSITE rather than the state.
I still do not believe that this was intended for nationwide notary services. I find it very interesting that the lawyers (formerly legal counsel to xyz) who claim to have crafted the laws for Va. have not yet pulled out full throttle. I think they may be letting NN get ahead and see how far that they get...pushing the envelope.
What I remember reading was that Va. online notarization was for notarizing within Virginia and for the federal government.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 7/29/12 12:36pm
Msg #428558
Taking action - I am starting with the Tx SoS
I decided that my SOS may not even realize that this is taking place...time to bring it to their attention and to figure out where to go to find out if Texas business, finance, and property transactions will recognize a Va. webcam notarization.
I started to apologize for bringing this up again, but decided that I should not. Feel free to copy and use the letter that I have come up with so far. If I get past the mote on this one, I will be looking for a better letter writer than I am to help me craft one to go to the next step.
**Note - Don't leave the webcam company name as "NN"--give the details on that website/company...I just won't do it here.
Dear Sir or Madam:
Based on recent unchallenged claims of two companies that are now performing online notarizations via webcam, _____ notaries can be effectively replaced by webcam notaries in the Commonwealth of Virginia; as you probably know, webcam notarization became legal in Virginia on July 1, 2012.
In other words, if a __your state___ citizen can go online and get a document notarized, there is no reason to seek a __your state___ notary. A Virginia notary can notarize documents for citizens in __your state___ via webcams while they sit at their computers.
This is economically devastating for individual notaries, _____ insurance agents, and for the offices in the State of ______ that manage notary affairs. More importantly, it goes against our notary laws and is not in the best interest of our citizens.
The companies’ websites that are promoting this idea are shown under my signature line and contact information. Also, please be aware that several states that were initially impacted by the company “NN” back in June, 2011 made statements against webcam notarization validity. I have listed those below, as well.
***Add a statement here about what your state has done or not done to address this:
______________________
Other states have been very clear on this matter and that not only is a notary working outside of the law, the notarization is invalid when performed in front of a webcam out of the presence of a notary. This is my main question. Are the notarizations invalid, or not? Will _____ accept webcam notarizations performed by notaries via webcam in Virginia while the signer sits in our state at a computer signing a document electronically?
Please advise what official in the State of ____ that I must approach to ask for guidance on these matters and to draw attention to this serious issue. I understand that you may not be able to address this immediately, but a courtesy response would be very much appreciated so that I know that my concerns have been received and that a reply will be coming.
Respectfully,
Name
Contact info.
=========================
Companies Involved to Date
Named the NN company & gave website
--
QUOTE FROM WEBSITE: “Can people in every state accept online notarizations?
Yes, documents notarized in Virginia by an online notary are legally valid in all 50 states. Out of state and electronic notarizations are also legal and valid in all 50 states. This has been the case for hundreds of years, and has been tested in courts. All states and the federal government have passed laws enabling electronic, out of state notarization. The National Association of Secretaries of State has published that all states recognize the validity of an acknowledgment prepared by an out-of-state notary.”
Safedocs -- gave website - google them
--Information about principals who are attorneys: http://bit.ly/NBZynV
--QUOTE: “Notaries in Virginia can now perform online notarizations for any signer in any state, anytime. The signer, a practicing attorney in California, executed a durable Power of Attorney. The notary and signer met in a live, two-way audio-video conference and digitally signed and notarized the Power of Attorney pursuant to Virginia law.”
http://bit.ly/NPao7n
--Additional Press Release: http://bit.ly/O9nYUA
==============================================
Statements Collected from State’s Websites (or emails)
CALIFORNIA (March 2011)
"Online webcam notarization is invalid and illegal in the State of California. A private company claims to have the first online notarization website and has sent misleading information and made false claims to California notaries public concerning a new online notarization service. The web-based platform purports to allow a person to submit copies of identification over the Internet and to use a webcam in lieu of a personal appearance in front of a notary public. Appearance via webcam does not meet the requirements for notarization in California...."
http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/customer-alert.htm
FLORIDA (May 2011)
"Thank you for contacting the Governor’s Notary Section. The physical presence requirement at the time of notarization is still in effect per section 117.107(9), Florida Statutes and there are no exceptions to the presence requirement. " (Via email.)
NEVADA (JULY 2011)
"Customer Alert: Online webcam notarizations are not permitted in the State of Nevada. A person seeking a notarization is required to personally appear before a notary public and sign the document in the presence of the notary. Appearance via a webcam or other electronic medium such as Skype does not meet Nevada’s law governing personal appearance. Please be aware of any online notarization service being offered by a private company..."
http://nvsos.gov/index.aspx?page=165
NEW JERSEY (July 2011)
"NOTICE Concerning Online Notary Services Utilizing a Web Cam or other Video Equipment: The Division of Revenue requested legal guidance concerning the practice of online notarization services utilizing a webcam or other video in lieu of a personal appearance in front of a valid New Jersey Notary. It has been determined that New Jersey’s statutes do not allow for this type of notarization."
http://www.nj.gov/treasury/revenue/notary_web_cam.shtml
RHODE ISLAND (June 2011)
"ALERT - Please be advised that pursuant to state law, all Notary Publics authorized to by his Excellency the Governor, may exercise said powers 'within this state'. An individual completing an acknowledgment must do so "before" a person authorized to take acknowledgments under Rhode Island law, including Notaries Public. The Governor of the State of Rhode Island and the Rhode Island Secretary of State have further set forth, by Executive Order, the requirement that the person completing an acknowledgment or seeking other services from the Notary Public must 'appear in person' before the Notary Public. Other electronic means of appearance, such as web cam and Skype, do not comply with the requirements of state law and the Executive Order."
http://sos.ri.gov/business/notary/
OKLAHOMA (July 2011)
“OKLAHOMA CITY – Attorney General Scott Pruitt’s Public Protection Unit Wednesday cautioned Oklahomans not to use online notarization services. Pruitt issued the warning after consumers in several states reported being contacted by an electronic notarization service provider. The provider claimed their service could provide an online notary via webcam that bypassed the need to appear in person to receive notarization…”
http://www.oag.ok.gov/oagweb.nsf/0/51B1B4F43A9F280E862578CC005B307F!OpenDocument
OHIO (July 2011)
"Scam alert: Online Notarization. Online webcam notarization” is invalid in Ohio, but at least one company is claiming to provide a web-based notary service to consumers throughout the U.S. Under Ohio law, if you need to get a document notarized to verify your signature on the document, you must be physically present with the notary public at the time you sign the document.
If you are not physically present (in person) with the notary public at the time of signing, the notarization is invalid and the document itself may become invalid..."
http://www.ohioattorneygeneral.gov/SpeakOutOhio/Blog/July-2011-(1)/Scam-alert--online-notarization
OREGON (July 2011)
ONLINE WEBCAM NOTARIZATION is invalid and illegal in the State of Oregon.
"A private company claims to have the first online notarization website and has false claims concerning a new online notarization service...It is important that Oregon notaries do not participate in this scheme. Clearly, Oregon notaries public who notarize in this fashion are breaking the law, and are subject to administrative and possibly criminal and civil sanctions. It is unclear if notarizations of Oregon citizens done remotely by notaries that are not in Oregon will be upheld in court."
http://bit.ly/NBZynV0
TEXAS (Jan 13, 2011)
"Thank you for bringing this to our attention. Performing a notarization without the signer personally appearing before the notary at the time of the notarization is a Prohibited Act. It is specifically cited as good cause for taking disciplinary action against your notary commission. Tex. Gov’t Code Ann. § 406.009; 1 Tex. Admin. Code § 87.11(a)(16). Appearance by webcam or video conference is not personal appearance. Personal appearance means physically appearing in the presence of the notary." (Via email.)
WISCONSIN (May 2011)
"...Online webcam notarization is invalid and illegal in the State of Wisconsin. A private company claims to have the first online notarization website and has sent misleading information and made false claims to Wisconsin Notaries Public concerning a new online notarization service. The web-based platform purports to allow a person to submit copies of identification over the Internet and to use a webcam in lieu of a personal appearance in front of a Notary Public. Appearance via webcam does not meet the requirements for notarization in Wisconsin..."
http://bit.ly/NBZynV1
| Reply by BrendaTx on 7/29/12 12:37pm
Msg #428560
Re: Taking action - I am starting with the Tx SoS
correction - the link was wrong in the post above for Wisconsin.
WISCONSIN (May 2011)
"...Online webcam notarization is invalid and illegal in the State of Wisconsin. A private company claims to have the first online notarization website and has sent misleading information and made false claims to Wisconsin Notaries Public concerning a new online notarization service. The web-based platform purports to allow a person to submit copies of identification over the Internet and to use a webcam in lieu of a personal appearance in front of a Notary Public. Appearance via webcam does not meet the requirements for notarization in Wisconsin..."
http://www.sos.state.wi.us/NotOnLine.htm
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 7/29/12 2:14pm
Msg #428572
Re: Taking action - I am starting with the Tx SoS
I don't think the passages about economic effects on notaries will be helpful; government officials should seeking to keep costs to the public as low as possible; if there is a way to make notarizations cheaper with the same level of security, it should be allowed. If that means mobile notaries become obsolete, so be it. The emphasis should be on reliability and security for the public, not the special interests of mobile notaries.
I'm not sure what the part about insurance companies means.
The part about affecting the economics of the notary regulatory authorities might turn out to be true, and in their heart of hearts those authorities might not like it, but they will never say so in public. Getting rid of unnecessary government bureaucrats is supposed to be a good thing.
The way in which the statements of state notary regulators against webcam notarizations might be considered misleading. Either the statements were made before the Virginia law went into effect, or they were directed toward what notaries in the particular state were allowed to do. So far, I have not found a statement from a state official made after June 1, 2012, which says a web notarization performed in accordance with Virginia law would not be acceptable in some other state. Nor have I found such a statement that either a Virginia notary or a person present in some other state would be doing anything wrong if the Virginia notary performed a notarial act, following all the Virginia webcam requirements, for the person present outside Virginia.
| Reply by BrendaTx on 7/29/12 3:36pm
Msg #428582
Can you please provide a letter, VT?
An alternative to this one for more altruistic states? One that pushes the right buttons?
I played the right notes for Texas officials and lawmakers. Other notaries need to find out what drives their state. Case in point...the xyz tried to tell Texas lawmakers that they needed to educate and test Texas notaries. The NO. 1 discussion of the Judicial Ctte was it would take money out of the pockets of the state, notaries, lawyers, and insurance agents.
1 - Maybe in VT state workers and lawmakers really are altruistic and like to act like they do not care about money, but I work for the state and I know about budgets...it's all that we talk about. Thousands of state workers lost their jobs over the past two years. This is a very real concern by those who work in state offices. Notary application fees provides revenue to the state of Texas in the approxiate amount of $2,100,000 per year.
2-Re economic effects on notaries - This could be true for less realistic states who do not think about economic issues. We do. In Texas, make no mistake, lawmakers are not going to be embarrassed to say that this it is a real problem if it economically effects 400,000 Texas citizens (notaries) who are on an easily accessible mailing list.
3-Insurance agents have a huge lobby effort. Every notary must be bonded by an insurance agent in Texas - that is around $5,000,000 per year -- $50 a pop to new and renewing notaries.
Major insurance companies that sell bonds in Texas can easily have 6% to 10% of those bonds--maybe even more. An interviewee (at a legislative hearing) told me that their company garnered 16% of the share. That's $300,000(6%) to $800,000 (16%) a year...and the agencies take a large cut of that as net profit. Some agencies have made a niche business out of notary bonds.
Throw in another $80K-$100K net profit on E&O policies on a small to medium notary insurance business, and there you go.
4 - "Nor have I found such a statement that either a Virginia notary or a person present in some other state would be doing anything wrong if the Virginia notary performed a notarial act, following all the Virginia webcam requirements, for the person present outside Virginia."
a. The statements were made in June, 2011...I made note of that.
b. Texans don't care for being told that they must accept another state's laws.
c. I have been involved in a discussion with principal officials in several states. They are questioning this. It's time to bring it up in my state.
d. I just want an answer. Once I have that, I'll know what to do next.
e. At worst, this could create a segue into Texas webcam notarization legalization.
If it is going to happen like this in Virginia and the train has left the station, I'm not going to be in favor of notary fees going to Va....I am selfish. I want our money pulled back into my state and I want to be involved in making sure I get heard a time or two about it. We've got 401,000 notaries...trailed only by Florida with 398,000.
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