Posted by reba on 6/30/12 6:25pm
Msg #425233

Airport Notarization

I received a call from man at a local airport who was in need of a notarization because his daughter who was to accompany him has a different last name. He mentioned that the child's mother was also at the airport. I asked him if he had the necessary paperwork and he replied that he had a note. His flight was due to leave within the hour... I wanted to help him but I had not experienced one before and wondered if a "note" was all that was needed. I personally thought that there would be some type of formal TSA document/form needed, but I have not been able to find anything online. I would appreciate any guidance or direction. I live near the airport and would like to assist the next parent who needs this kind of help.

Reply by ikando on 6/30/12 6:31pm
Msg #425235

I have researched & developed a form for my area for that circumstance. I offer that service, and calculate the time, parking, & notary fee when pricing. Fortunately the airport is relatively easy access, so most people can afford me. :-)

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/30/12 6:54pm
Msg #425239

Good work, IKANDO! n/m

Reply by reba on 6/30/12 7:12pm
Msg #425241

Thank you for input, but response did not address my question. I myself am in the midst of research which is why I put the question out there. I have checked the TSA website and other places, but so far I have not seen info regarding the process.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 6/30/12 7:23pm
Msg #425243

If you develop a form, isn't that UPL?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/1/12 8:31am
Msg #425265

UPL - it is here in Florida

Unless it's a Supreme Court approved form, we are not allowed to provide forms for signers - and we're most definitely not allowed to create documents for them. I'm pretty sure this practice is UPL in all states, except maybe LA, where the notaries are a whole different breed of animal.

Reply by ikando on 7/1/12 11:13am
Msg #425271

Re: UPL - it is here in Florida

Shoshana and Linda,

I'm confused. UPL, as I understand it, means ADVISING people of what they can or cannot do under the law. What I have done is change the form (similar to those provided by others in this topic) to specify the venue and print my name, ONLY.

If a family is already at the airport and needing the form, unless they have access to a computer and printer (true, often available--if they can locate them in a short time), I am only providing a paper which they could have downloaded. (Are they practicing law?) It is a convenience in response to their request, and they complete the necessary information.

FWIW, I also have bills of sale for vehicles, blank jurat and acknowledgements, and other forms that people have requested. It is part of the service I provide. The documents CAN be obtained online, but often people don't think about them until they need them, i.e., at the airport.

If someone wants a POA, Will, divorce paperwork, or other more involved document, I suggest they contact an attorney, or research on their own. Those are usually something that needs thought and consideration and counsel. I do not provide those. But simple, fill-in-the-blank forms, I try to accommodate.

Reply by ikando on 7/1/12 11:18am
Msg #425272

Re: UPL - it is here in Florida

Also, while a "note" may be adequate, oftentimes it's been my experience that information is left off because the writer is unaware of what is pertinent. In my opinion, if the note doesn't contain the needed information, it's worthless.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/1/12 2:31pm
Msg #425295

Re: UPL - it is here in Florida

"Also, while a "note" may be adequate, oftentimes it's been my experience that information is left off because the writer is unaware of what is pertinent. In my opinion, if the note doesn't contain the needed information, it's worthless. "

Unless you're an attorney, that's not your call to make. JMO

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/1/12 2:30pm
Msg #425294

Re: UPL - it is here in Florida

"What I have done is change the form (similar to those provided by others in this topic) to specify the venue and print my name, ONLY. "

That's not what you said..you said

"I have researched & developed a form for my area for that circumstance. I offer that service,"

THAT is UPL - researching and developing a form for consumers to use and providing it to them...unless it's specifically allowed in your state. Filling in the venue and your name, in advance, on an already existing form is one thing...but you said you developed the form for use in your area - THAT is UPL.

As I said, in Florida there are Supreme Court approved forms that we CAN provide to them, but we can't help them fill it out. I, however, do not provide any forms (other than form notarial certs) simply because of the human nature aspect of it - if I provide the form, it is logical tha the recipient is going to assume it's the correct form for their situation and they will rely on that assumption. I don't want that burden on me. I will refer them to places to obtain forms...but I won't provide them.

JMO

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 7/1/12 2:42pm
Msg #425298

In AZ, researching and designing a form is upl.

I have done this type of work before where the customer writes a note (on plain paper). All I do is show them an ack and a jurat and they choose which one. I attach whichever one they choose.

Reply by Notary1/CO on 7/1/12 5:32pm
Msg #425315

Re: UPL - it is here in Florida

UPL generally involves 4 activities: drafting legal forms, offering legal advice, offering legal opinions and representing a client in court. If you want to use legal self-help (pro se), you can choose to draft your own legal forms and contracts, do legal research, form opinions and represent yourself in court.

Selling self-help legal forms or legal books with forms is generally not considered UPL, as long as advice and assistance is not included. Check your state laws and court cases on UPL. Office supply stores and legal form websites can sell legal forms. Libraries and bookstores can offer legal books.

I set up an LLC for my business. Cost $50. My LLC is an affiliate for US Legal Forms. Cost $0. They offer 36,000 legal forms. If someone asks me for a legal form, I tell them they can go to my website and click on the US Legal Forms banner. They can search for the form they want on the US Legal Forms website. If they buy a form online, my LLC receives a referral fee as an affiliate. Legal form sales generate additional income for my LLC, even when no notarization is required.

If they have legal questions, I tell them I am not an attorney and I do not give legal advice. I also tell them that my LLC is an affiliate for LegalShield (formerly PrePaid Legal Services). They can join LegalShield as a member on my LLC website and then they can talk to an attorney anytime they want for a low monthly membership fee. If they join LegalShield, my LLC receives a referral fee when they join, and a renewal fee every year that they remain a member (residual income). If they need a will prepared, that is included in their membership.

My website works like a vending machine, open 24 hours, and makes sales even when I am sleeping. While I can only offer mobile notary services to my local market, my online sales are available to a nationwide market.

Reply by Notary1/CO on 7/1/12 2:40pm
Msg #425297

Re: UPL - it is here in Florida

From: Florida Courts, Summary of UPL Cases at http://www.flcourts.org/gen_public/courted/bin/Summary-UPL-Cases.pdf

Generally speaking, a nonlawyer may sell forms and complete the form with information provided in writing by the individual. The Florida Bar v. Brumbaugh, 355 So. 2d 1186 (Fla. 1978). If the nonlawyer is using a form approved by the Supreme Court of Florida, the nonlawyer may engage in limited oral communication to elicit the factual information that goes in the blanks of the form. Rule 10-2.1(a), R.Reg.Fla.Bar. The nonlawyer may not make any changes to the form and may not give advice on possible courses of action. If the nonlawyer is using a form which has not been approved by the Supreme Court of Florida, the nonlawyer may only type the blanks on the form with information obtained from the individual in writing.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 7/1/12 2:43pm
Msg #425299

Re: UPL - it is here in Florida...thank you

I rest my case...a notary researching and developing a form for use here in Florida is UPL..

Reply by VT_Syrup on 7/1/12 7:20pm
Msg #425322

Notary1/CO left out a word

When Notary1/CO quoted http://www.flcourts.org/gen_public/courted/bin/Summary-UPL-Cases.pdf that poster left out a word. It should say "Generally speaking, a nonlawyer may sell LEGAL forms and kits and complete them with information provided in writing by the customer." [Emphasis added.]

It isn't clear whether a travel letter is a legal form, so it isn't clear that a notary, not acting in his/her official capacity but just as an individual, isn't allowed to draft such a letter.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 7/1/12 7:55pm
Msg #425324

Re: Notary1/CO left out a word (maybe)

On closer examination, I see the phrase appears in two places in the web page. In one spot it's "legal forms" and another spot it's "forms". Still, give the subject of the web page, it seems clear they are only writing about legal forms and are not discussing all forms.

Reply by Notary1/CO on 7/1/12 9:36pm
Msg #425331

Re: Notary1/CO left out a word

I did not leave out a word. You're reading a different citation. My quote is taken from section 20 of the document which is titled Preparation of Legal Documents. Although it says forms, it is referring to legal forms. You are reading section 8 of the document, please read section 20.

A Permission to Travel legal form is typically a notarized affidavit, sworn to or affirmed before the notary.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 7/1/12 6:48pm
Msg #425319

Re: UPL - in general

Sure, it's UPL to advise a client for a fee about what LEGAL form a person should use, or draw up a custom LEGAL form. But not all letters or forms are legal forms. Deeds certainly are. Mothers to grandma wishing her a happy birthday definitely are not. A notary could advise someone on how to word a letter to grandma. The notary could then notarize it, although in the whole history of the world probably no one has ever asked for that service.

So the question is whether a travel letter is a legal document or just an ordinary document. I'm leaning toward ordinary document. I don't subscribe to the idea that an ordinary document becomes a legal document just because it's notarized.

(As for "for a fee", in some states practicing law without a license without charging a fee is legal, in other states it's illegal.)

Reply by Notary1/CO on 7/1/12 11:26pm
Msg #425337

Re: UPL - in general

You have to follow the statutes and court cases in your own state to avoid UPL. There may be laws prohibiting a layperson or paralegal from UPL, with or without charging a fee. There may be additional laws that are specifically for notaries to follow. Some states also prohibit the use of the word Legal in a business name, unless it is a law firm providing legal services. Some states have laws allowing document preparers.

I know a notary that got charged with UPL. They chose a bad name for their business, such as XYZ Legal Consulting, and it was not clear on their website that they were notaries, not lawyers. They charged a fee for document preparation, but the fee was much higher than a typical fee for secretarial or typing services. The fee was close to fees charged by law firms.

Reply by BrendaTx on 6/30/12 7:25pm
Msg #425244

You are correct, Reba - let me see if I can help.

I recently wrote an article that has not yet been published. I have a few suggestions from that research.

The problem is that the child's parents/guardians have to allow them to leave the country.

An example of a notarized form letter of consent and its instructions are downloadable from the U.S. Department of State’s website. http://photos.state.gov/libraries/unitedkingdom/164203/cons-acs/sample_letter_of_consent_to_travel.pdf

If the traveling parent or other person with whom a child will travel wants a notarized letter (and, obviously, that is why they called you) you will need to let them pick a certificate to add to it if you use the form above.

If you are going to get into this, you should probably googledy-google the following words without the < >
<sample letter of consent to travel with child state gov>.

Reply by Sha/CA on 6/30/12 8:48pm
Msg #425246

How nice of you Brenda. Great form to save for future use. n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/1/12 4:04pm
Msg #425307

From my perspective (Legal forms)

When I am working on a tidbit of content for a website, I don't create forms like these in order to discuss them.

However, almost every form in the entire world is already on the 'net and a good many of them may be found on websites that are of a legal or governmental origin.

For the sake of discussion, I always look for a *.gov website or I visit my personal attorney for assistance.

While I would not provide a form to a client, I would be inclined to suggest that they come up with a form on their own and that they may be able to find such forms on any number of websites if they search for it.

UsLegalForms.com and Nolo.com has fought to offer such forms and won. For instance: http://www.nolo.com/products/authorization-for-foreign-travel-with-minor-PRF3S5.html $15 and they are good to go.

Anyhow, the link that I provided is one that I have used as an example. If it's good enough for the U.S. DoS, it's good enough for me to use for discussion purposes.

Reply by reba on 6/30/12 8:56pm
Msg #425247

Re: You are correct, Reba - let me see if I can help.

Thank you Brenda. I am surprised the TSA wouldn't have had this type of info.

Reply by MW/VA on 6/30/12 9:13pm
Msg #425249

In most of the situations I've dealt with like this the

parents or guardians had a form. I wouldn't have any idea where they got it. This is actually pretty common, and often children are traveling out of the country with grandparents, aunt, uncles, or other family members. As far as I know, they are required to have it so there's no question that the child was abducted, or is traveling for illicit reasons. Unfortunately, the world is not a safe place for children.

Reply by LKT/CA on 6/30/12 9:06pm
Msg #425248

Permission For Minor To Travel

I notarized such a letter two days ago for a co-worker. Basically he typed up the "who, what, when, and where" and since he wanted a jurat, I just had him type that on the bottom.

In your situation, reba, a note was sufficient. You just notarize the signature on the note, asking the customer which certificate (ack or jurat) they'd like. I've notarized plenty of signatures on customer letters and POAs simply handwritten on notebook paper.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/30/12 9:33pm
Msg #425253

Re: Permission For Minor To Travel

I agree, Lisa. I've done a number of these, as well. Nearly all were simply a letter (often handwritten) that covers the basics. I show them the two types of notarizations, they pick one, and I attach it to the letter. They've usually been told by someone what info they need to include. The contents are none of my concern, anyway. They've presented a document that has a place for a signature they want me to notarize. If it's complete and they have proper ID, that's all I need.

The link Brenda provided looks like a great guideline for parents to follow, but I'm not aware of any form created by the TSA for this purpose, although that would probably be a very good idea!

Reply by Notary1/CO on 6/30/12 9:44pm
Msg #425256

You can view a sample form at US Legal Forms at http://www.uslegalforms.com/us/US-00468BG.htm, International Travel Consent for a Minor with Affidavit.

In case of a medical emergency while traveling, the form also grants the right to seek medical treatment during the trip. Before traveling, it is a good idea to check if your medical insurance provides coverage when traveling outside of the country.

Reply by sandi_CA on 7/1/12 2:52pm
Msg #425300

Thank you to all who have provided links to forms! I am called often, by people heading to Mexico, needing letters notarized. I've always just notarized whatever letter they wrote up and then wondered if they'd included enough information. Will be nice to show them these generic forms if they need them.

Reply by Notarysigner on 7/1/12 2:01am
Msg #425262

http://www.casto.com/files/travel_tools/letterofconsent.pdf

OR

http://www.freewebs.com/docdiva/Minor%20Travel%20Consent.pdf


BOTH WILL WORK

Reply by Susan Fischer on 7/1/12 8:03am
Msg #425264

I can't believe TSA has that authority. Since both parents

were there, the daughter was traveling with Dad, and Mother was there to attest to her OK, and the daughter wasn't screaming she had never seen these people before, and there was (parents version) written permission by the non-traveling parent, who is TSA to disallow?

I sure hope they made their flight.

I go back to the old standby: Notarize, don't analyze.

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/1/12 8:34am
Msg #425266

Re: I can't believe TSA has that authority. Since both parents

Susan - In 1995, I took my son and two minors who were not my children to Cancun. I went bearing notarized letters....one from my son's dad, and letters from the father and mother of the two who were in my care and control. Customs wants to see those letters when you leave and re-enter a country. Almost all travel agents will tell parents to do this; so do cruise lines.

I also had birth certificates for all three in hand to prove citizenship. (I think that this is now a function of passports for minors.)

Reply by Susan Fischer on 7/1/12 12:13pm
Msg #425277

I thought this was about TSA requirements at airports.

Did I miss something?

Reply by BrendaTx on 7/1/12 1:53pm
Msg #425287

Just a guess, Susie, but I think that the OP

may have assumed it was a TSA requirement and not the stop at the customs desk on the way out of the country.

Reply by Barb25 on 7/1/12 2:17pm
Msg #425291

OP: Just for clarification

You are talking about travel outside of US not domestic travel, correct?