Posted by jnew on 6/24/12 4:57pm
Msg #424525

Turned down a nursing home POA signing.

I don't trust my ability to determine if the prinicipal is aware enough to sign. I am getting cautious enough that it may be bordering upon paranoia. I know that several states are implementing new notary legislation on POA's. I wish my state, Wisconsin, had a defined process under which the notary could make better decisions. I asked on this one, that the principal, an elderly lady in the nursing home, call me and discuss the document before I showed up. The third party realtor, tells me that that is not possible and that I can talk to her when I arrive at the home. Then, he says that a local title company drafted the POA. I know they have no lawyers at this TC. It appears by all of this, that the POA is for purpose of selling the lady's property. It occurs to me that she could have just as well have signed the deed instead of granting a power of sale at the time of closing. I am probably a better judge of cheese than people, but this didn't smell right and I walked away from it. The problem I foresaw was the attorney butting in when I ask the signer the pertinent questions. (Can you identify this document? Do you understand the purpose of the document? Are you signing the document of your free will?) I see this a lot. The signer will stare at me with a confused look when I ask the questions and the proposed attorney in fact will start answering on their behalf or coach them how to answer. Any recommendations for a fool-proof process on this matter?

Reply by MikeC/TX on 6/24/12 5:25pm
Msg #424528

You need to be assertive in these situations. If you can't be assertive (and a lot of folks can't be, so it's no reflection on you personally), then you're right to walk away from the job.

Best practice, probably, is to ask the others to leave the room while you speak to the signer alone. You can then ask questions that will help you determine whether they are capable of understanding what's going on without them being coached.

If that's not possible, you will have to insist that the person answer your questions without help from the peanut gallery - and if they refuse to cooperate, then part of being assertive is being able to say "I'm not going to do this" and walking away rather than giving in to the bullying tactics. They will probably find a notary at some point that will do what they want, but it won't be you.

Reply by LKT/CA on 6/24/12 6:30pm
Msg #424533

Always best to speak to the signer in person. An imposter can be the voice on the other end. You can always require a non-refundable travel fee so that at least you are compensated for the drive. Do the types of appts you feel confident in handling and refer the others to a notary directory (here) or the UPS Store.

Personally, I have no problem tossing everyone out of the room to speak to the signer alone, and I have done that. In one case, the lady did not want to sign the POA her daughter called me to witness. Her daughter and the fiance tried every which way to convince me that the lady was a clueless loon and that they knew what was best. The lady was no loon and knew what she did and did not want. I told her I wasn't there to force her to sign and if she didn't want to sign, she didn't have to. She seemed relieved after I said that to her. I aborted the appt and told the ticked off daughter and fiance that she didn't want to sign and I was leaving. I'm comfortable dealing with folks like that.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 6/24/12 6:35pm
Msg #424535

Then maybe it's time to hang up the shingle. As Mike said,

it's not for everyone.

There is a developed knack to reading a room, a situation - akin to fisherman reading the sea and sky; chess players reading the game; poker players reading the tells, and the like. For instance, I'm terrible at poker, but can read the pool room like a book.

Anyway, very often in elder care facilities of all kinds, there are patient/family coordinators/advocates who can corroborate the history and purpose (like selling the house because Mother isn't ever going to move back home) to assist in the daily business the elder must complete in order for the changes that are immenent to proceed.

Until one exhausts such avenues, it is difficult for anyone to truly know to the best of one's abilities, just what the skinny is. Personal knowledge and experience has shown me that when elders are faced with the certainties that change is going to happen, they still refuse to believe, and will resist in myriad ways.

It's a toughie. My advice is always follow your gut, but give your gut the benefit of good analysis.

Hope that helps - it's just my take.

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/24/12 7:37pm
Msg #424542

I think you did the right thing.

For ALL the reasons you stated in your original post, this situation just smells bad because, as you stated, there is no reason she can't sign the Deed and eliminate all the drama (unless we have other motives by ??? person/s...hence, the bad smell.)

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 6/24/12 9:01pm
Msg #424546

Re: I think you did the right thing.

I have been called to do these many times..On the phone the caller states that the signer knows full well what is going on..I have had many instances where that just isnt the case! You have to be able to seperate the signer from the family and talk to them privately..the family wants them to sign but sometimes they just cannot..The family insists that they can sign..I have had to say No they cannot sign this and have left several times. I also have left a message or spoken to the nurses or social services alerting them so they know what is going on as well..Sadly there are notaries that will do anything and everything..

You did the right thing..Its always a judgement call and you have to have the strength and fortitude to say no!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/25/12 2:42am
Msg #424559

I've found it helpful to mention to the person calling that I will need to talk to the signer and ask some questions to determine at least a minimal level of competence - and that it's important that they let the person answer for him or herself. [Not those exact words.] You can even tell them that if they interrupt and don't allow the signer to speak for themselves, that that may be cause for you to decide to not complete the notarization.

I also let them know that my travel fee applies whether or not I'm able to complete the notarization. I do my best to try to find out in advance, because I'd rather not waste their time or my own for just a travel fee.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 6/25/12 8:49am
Msg #424567

I would have gone (with trip/time fee guaranteed)

I would not screen this over the phone...(a) you have no idea that the person on the other end truly is the signer; and (b) there's no substitute for face-to-face communication with eye contact. There's a lot that can be determined in a short, fact-to-face chat, and yes, I'd ask for alone time prior to with no involvement of any family members. If they won't allow that, then THAT's when the stink hits and they can get someone else.

It's possible it's being done because the signer is just too weak to sign all the papers required...also, it will allow the AIF to hand all the post-sale and post-closing details. It's possible it's being done because that's the way the signer wants it. Notaries need to limit their analyzing...sometimes there's more read into situations than is really necessary.

JMO

Reply by dickb/wi on 6/25/12 6:59pm
Msg #424641

james i would have asked all parties to leave the room then ask the questions .....also your point on why the party didn't just sign the deed, if it was a sale, is right on target.....i am a wi real estate broker and wonder why the Realtor is getting involved.....that is not his/her job....s/he is supposed to tell the party to seek legal advice......