Posted by Marian_in_CA on 6/4/12 7:37pm
Msg #422554

Very interesting thing happened today... (for CA

SOmebody showed up at my door today asking for a notarization. When I asked them how they knew to come to my door, they said they got it from the Secretary of State's office. Now... I'm perfectly aware that this is considered public information in CA (they tell you this right on the application) but it was pretty interesting all the same.

THEN... I proceed to tell her that according to the CITY where I live, I'm not allowed to conduct business

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/4/12 7:47pm
Msg #422558

WHOOPS... not done...

Phantom poster gremlin strikes...

Anyway, as I was saying, I proceed to tell her that according to the CITY where I live, I'm not allowed to conduct business in my home with people who come to my door. It's a business license restriction. My city knows what I do, and they send compliance checkers... it's a small town full of self-important nosy busybodies with nothing better to do, what can I day?

Anyway, I told her I'd "meet" her across the street. We took care of it and all was well.

But it got me to thinking, we know that in CA certain businesses are allowed to prevent their notary employees from notarizing for walk-ins. This rule does NOT apply to those of us who are independent. We're supposed to comply with all legal requests.

And yet, the state must give out our work or residence addresses upon request from the public. Obviously, we can have "business hours" and don't have to comply with anyone who shows up at 3am, we aren't home or something weird like that. But if they show up in the middle of that day, why not?

Personally, I'm fine with it... but what if we live in an area where that activity is restricted? If your city, county, HOA, etc prohibits clients or customers visiting your home, how do you reconcile that with the fact that the state will give out your information because it's considered public?

I'm considering putting a sign on my door that says I can't take walkups but they can call and I'll go see them. That way, I'm still in compliance with the city but I'm not refusing to notarize (which is a no-no in CA except in certain circumstances).

Reply by MW/VA on 6/4/12 8:52pm
Msg #422566

IMO it's another example of how strange the laws in CA can

be. Who thinks this stuff up?? (My mind wants to think it's potheads with nothing better to do--LOL).
Sorry Marian, not directed at you. This "business license restriction" that doesn't allow you to have someone come to your home? Unbelievable........

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/4/12 9:15pm
Msg #422569

Re: IMO it's another example of how strange the laws in CA can

Yeah, it's a restrictions for home-based businesses. It's not all that unusual. The city I lived before had a similar restriction. The idea is that home-based business can be RUN from a home, but customer traffic cannot happen. The idea being that the area isn't zoned for 'commercial' traffic - people coming and going.

SO in order to get the business license, I have to tell them that I don't have customers come to my home, that I'm strictly mobile. In fact, I have to put the city business license decal on my car's back window because I'm mobile.

The funny thin gis that if I'm mobile I can conduct business in the homes of customers... I suppose it's a volume of traffic thing.

Reply by MW/VA on 6/4/12 9:46pm
Msg #422573

I get that. Zoning restrictions here are about the same.

I'm in a residential area, and they don't want anyone setting up a commercial venture.
Haha--tell that to the drug dealers or prostitutes who do biz everyday from homes, street corners, etc. They don't pay for licenses, don't pay taxes, etc. LOL Maybe we're in the wrong biz (only kidding).

Reply by Buddy Young on 6/4/12 9:08pm
Msg #422568

Re: WHOOPS... not done...

I'm trying to think of a good reason why a city would prohibit you from doing notarizations in your home, but I can't think of one.

Sounds like a dumb law to me.

Reply by HisHughness on 6/4/12 11:06pm
Msg #422579

Hardly dumb. That's what zoning is all about.

What if you wanted to teach disco in your living room? Then you wanted to run a disco club? With dining on the front lawn? Live bands till 4 a.m.? A bar? Parking in the back yard?

If you agree with the concept of zoning, that certain property uses should be protected from and separated from others, then prohibiting business traffic to and from a residence makes sense. Zoning under governmental authority has been going on for a century in this country, and before that privately through deed restrictions.

As a former city hall reporter, I can assure you that you start tinkering with the laws that prohibit an Exxon station from setting up shop next to John Q. Homeowner's castle in suburbia, you are going to have a most uncomfortable ride out of town on a rail in an interesting black suit composed of tar and feathers.

Reply by Buddy Young on 6/4/12 11:23pm
Msg #422581

Re: OK, Hugh you made me see the light n/m

Reply by Lee/AR on 6/4/12 8:08pm
Msg #422560

Seems like a reasonable solution to an irrational problem. n/m

Reply by HisHughness on 6/4/12 8:21pm
Msg #422562

***I'm considering putting a sign on my door***

Odds are that the sign, too, will be unlawful.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/4/12 9:17pm
Msg #422571

Actually, Hugh... in the city I live in.... I'll bet you're right! I can't keep the magnetic signs on my car if I'm parked in my driveway, either.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 6/4/12 9:57pm
Msg #422575

I think Marian's city policy is great!

If my neighbor were a notary, I certainly wouldn't want a steady stream of people tromping up to their home day in and day out to get their stuff notarized. We all presumably live in neighborhoods zoned for residential use, not in areas zoned to provide (paid) services to the public. We may be home-based businesses, but we're not Jack in the Box.

Also, if you don't want your address publicly revealed, get a P.O. Box and use that as your address on the Online Notary Public Listing on the SOS Web site. I do.

As far as the "conflict" between the CA law requiring us to provide notarial services to anybody who asks (more or less), there are other considerations: For a notary to allow people to come into their house so they can make a few extra $$ doing GNW without carrying business insurance (and a city/county business license) is pretty risky, IMHO. What if something "happened"? What is they said your dog bit them. Or they slipped on your kid's skateboard. Furthermore, to allow "perfect strangers" to come in our houses on the premise of seeking a notarization is also pretty risky.

Of course, the major consideration for me personally is that I'd have to keep my house clean all the time in the event somebody actually dropped by. Yikes! I'd be like the loan signers who say to me: "Sorry, the house is such a mess."

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/4/12 11:41pm
Msg #422582

One problem with a PO Box...

I, too, have a PO box as a business address, and that's the mailing address listed on the SOS's website file.

HOWEVER, on the application you must also give them your residential address, and it specifically says, no PO Boxes go there. And, on the back of the application it says in bold letters that your residential address can and will be given to the public upon request.

If you don't put your residential address where required, you risk having your commission revoked/denied because the application is signed under penalty of perjury.

See #6, 7 and 8 of the instructions on the form:

http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary_app.pdf

They are really specific.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/5/12 1:23am
Msg #422585

Re: One problem with a PO Box...

A short while back, I went looking again for the section where it says that we aren't able to refuse a valid request as long as someone pays the fee, and I couldn't find it. It wasn't an exhaustive search, as I didn't have a lot of time, but I'm wondering if that isn't one more thing that has been removed from our handbook. (I do remember it from when I first became a notary 12 years ago - and at some point since - but not recently.)

I'm suspecting that that verbiage predates the rise in popularity of *mobile* notaries and that it may have been originally intended for store-front operations, banks, etc. where people typically went to find a notary. I recall having the impression that it was meant to prevent discrimination.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/5/12 2:03am
Msg #422589

Re: One problem with a PO Box...

I think you may be right, Janet. But I think a lot of it is pieced together through various rules.

For example:

§ 8205. Duties
(a) It is the duty of a notary public, when requested: [...]

We also have wording in the handbook a couple of times that indicates we just can't do things that are specifically against the law.

That's basically telling us if somebody comes to us with a legal request, it's our duty to honor their request, and by taking the oath and having the commission, we agree to it. Obviously, we aren't going to be expected to honor requests outside of our own regular business practices, but beyond that, we can't just refuse to notarize somebody's signature if they otherwise have everything in order.


The only exception that is spelled out for us right now is this:

§ 8202.8. Private employers; limitation on provision of notarial services
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a private employer of a notary public who has entered into an agreement with his or her employee pursuant to Section 8202.7 may limit, during the employee’s ordinary course of employment, the providing of notarial services by the employee solely to transactions directly associated with the business purposes of the employer.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/5/12 3:27am
Msg #422590

Re: One problem with a PO Box...

The only part I take issue with is "when someone comes to us...". If a notary is at a PUBLIC place of business - with business hours - and someone comes to them with a valid notarial request, then I agree that they need to treat them the same as any other person requesting notarization, as long as they've met the legal requirements.

But if someone comes to my home, even though it's my primary place of business, I don't feel I even have the obligation to answer my door, let alone invite them in to provide notary services to them. My home office is not a public place, and as far as I'm concerned, without an appointment, I have no obligation to anyone for any notarial services, since the service I provide is mobile only. (And I don't discriminate about that.) In fact, unless I knew who it was, I probably wouldn't even open my door. Becoming a notary public shouldn't mean giving up having a private life, in my opinion. Frankly, I'm not thrilled with the SOS making our addresses public. (And I'd rather not have to deal with the hassle - or extra expense - of having a PO Box.)

My home address is also not zoned for business - and when people say they're willing to come to me, I always tell them that I'm not insured to do business from my home, even though that has nothing to do with it. I'm typically happy to meet them somewhere else, if my schedule permits. (BTW, my city does not require me to have a business license. I wonder if that's why there are so many signing services and notaries here. )

I do think it's possible to over-think some of this stuff...

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/5/12 10:54am
Msg #422620

Re: One problem with a PO Box...

"But if someone comes to my home, even though it's my primary place of business, I don't feel I even have the obligation to answer my door, let alone invite them in to provide notary services to them. My home office is not a public place, and as far as I'm concerned, without an appointment, I have no obligation to anyone for any notarial services, since the service I provide is mobile only. (And I don't discriminate about that.) In fact, unless I knew who it was, I probably wouldn't even open my door. Becoming a notary public shouldn't mean giving up having a private life, in my opinion. Frankly, I'm not thrilled with the SOS making our addresses public. (And I'd rather not have to deal with the hassle - or extra expense - of having a PO Box.)"


I'm with you on that, actually... my home isn't public space and I don't want people just showing up. BUT... the fact remains that the State can and will give members of the public our HOME addresses if they are asked for it.

When that person knocked on my door, I just said that I couldn't do it at my home because of zoning rules, but I could meet her anywhere else in town because I'm strictly mobile...hence the 'meeting' across the street in a vacant lot.

I suspect that this may have been a compliance check, now that I look back on it. after talking to a family member, I think the person who came to my door is related to somebody who works at City Hall.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 6/5/12 1:50pm
Msg #422635

Interesting point, JanetK

For my recent renewal, I took the NR class. In the "Duty to Notarize" section, it said:

"With several notable exceptions, it is the duty of a California notary public to notarize upon request any properly submitted document for any person, upon receipt of applicable fees, anywhere in the state of California (Government Code 6110)."

(It then goes on to list the notable exceptions: restrictions imposed by private employer, lack of clear communication, having a conflict of interest, etc.)

Section 6110 in the 2012 Handbooks says: " Upon payment of the fees required by law, the officer shall perform the services required. For every failure or refusal to do so, the officer is liable upon his official bond."

So, does that mean if someone comes banging on your door at 3 a.m. with $10 cash in their hand that you are required to notarize? Yikes! Maybe banging on a notary's door at 3 a.m. is not "properly submitting" a document ... ? Incidentally, the SOS Web site lists Handbooks through 2005, and the earliest edition has the same 6110 wording. So as far as the genesis of the verbiage, it could have something to do with discrimination, like you suggested....

Reply by JanetK_CA on 6/5/12 2:52pm
Msg #422649

Re: Interesting point, JanetK

Good point about the handbook. (I have that page bookmarked and refer to it frequently.) Interesting that all it says these days is just that one line in the actual government code.

I recently came across the handbook I used for my first commission in 2000. In that book, in the front section, the 5th bold heading read "NOTARIES MAY NOT REFUSE SERVICES" [caps are theirs], and then it detailed the exceptions, most referring to notaries in a work environment, as an employee.

That entire section has since been removed. (I didn't bother checking *when* it was removed, 'cause I don't really care... ) As I stated above, even that recently, I believe most notaries (including me, at the time) did notary work as a part of their employment. The concept of a mobile notary who pursues this as a full time occupation, and likely works from home, is a relatively recent development - at least anywhere close to the numbers we see today. So I believe that should be taken into consideration when interpreting what's in the handbook - and I think it's significant that they chose to remove that section.

I think I was initially taught that the duty section was about discrimination. That issue, unfortunately, remains valid, imo. Today, hopefully it's hard for us to imagine a notary refusing service because of someone's color (although it's probably naive to think that it couldn't happen). But what about how someone is dressed or what language they might be speaking (assuming they also speak English passably)? Or in my state at least, if they present something like a registration for a domestic partnership? Sadly, none of that is too hard for me to imagine.

Perhaps the most important lesson in all of this, though, is to not read too much into what is in the code, and to not over-think some of these things.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 6/5/12 1:02pm
Msg #422628

Geez, Marian

My suggestion to use a P.O. Box for one's online listing in the SOS Web site directory was just that: a suggestion to those who might not want the public to have easy access to their home address. Period.
It wasn't meant to encourage anyone to commit notary application fraud by disregarding instructions #6, 7 and 8, to hide their residential address, to sign their notary application knowingly committing perjury, nor to do anything else in the application process that might jeopardize their commission causing revocation or denial. It was completely inappropriate for you to feel compelled to point any of this out, followed by a direct link to the SOS Web site, no less, where, presumably, I could educate my little brain on how to correctly fill out a notary application. I don't know how I have managed to fill out four of those apps so far without finding myself in deep doo doo. Must be dumb luck.

What is the matter with you? (That is a rhetorical question posed only to encourage you to think before you rev up to travel down your signature "the sky is falling" road.)

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 6/5/12 3:32pm
Msg #422664

Whoa!!!

You said, "Also, if you don't want your address publicly revealed, get a P.O. Box and use that as your address on the Online Notary Public Listing on the SOS Web site. I do."

Yes... I agree with you there. I do the exact same thing. HOWEVER you said, 'publicly revealed' which is a bit ambiguous. I felt it was important to point out to anyone else Reading that by using PO box as a mailing address, you aren't preventing your home address from being known, and that there is no way to prevent it, either. The CA application says multiple times on the one pages (including in the footer) that certain information is public.

It wasn't an attack towards you... holy moly. Just because I respond to something you said doesn't mean I'm specifically addressing you. Others read this, too, and it's important information for them to know and understand.