Posted by MrEd_Ca on 3/31/12 1:13pm
Msg #416720

Question for PA notary's ...

I have a POA signing coming up with the Power of Attorney document going back to Pennsylvania when signed by the 11 signers. The document was prepared by a PA attorney & on each of the acknowledgments (there are 5,) the attorney has inserted each of the signers name's, in the appropriate spot in the Ack, as 'John & Jane Smith'. There are 5 married couples names who are inserted into certificates, covering 14 pages, in this 'combined' manner.

My question is; does this fly in Pennsylvania ? For California documents I would have no hesitation in suggesting that each certificate have each signers name spelled out in it's entirety but this is Pennsylvania, with a document prepared by a Pennsylvania attorney so I do hesitate to challenge the document authors decisions with out some sort of reference.

So, if there are any Pennsylvania notary's who would know, please reply.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/31/12 1:59pm
Msg #416722

Re: Question for PA notary's ...doesn't matter

IMO the *document* has to be correct for PA - however, the notarization has to be correct for wherever the notarizations are taking place - if you're notarizing 11 peoples' signatures, then your certs have to comply with YOUR state laws, not PA's.

If you're positive that full names have to be in the certs (and I tend to agree with you that it's better as a matter of form but is it legally required?) then I'd speak with the attorney - or whoever hired you - and politely mention that you need to either conform the preprinted certs or attach CA compliant acknowledgements.

JMO and good luck..

Reply by MrEd_Ca on 3/31/12 2:14pm
Msg #416726

Re: Question for PA notary's ...doesn't matter

You have fingered my dilemma: that it is better as a matter of form for full names to be in the certificate but is it a legal requirement? If I could be positive that it were a legal requirement, for California or Pennsylvania, there would be no question. Without that knowledge I feel somewhat bound to follow the attorneys direction at face value &, since it will be signed on a Sunday, we will not be able to speak. I will politely, & diplomatically, I hope, mention it to the hiring party.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/31/12 2:15pm
Msg #416727

Can you just slash the last names in?..neatly? n/m

Reply by desktopfull on 3/31/12 5:02pm
Msg #416735

Re: Question for PA notary's ...doesn't matter

Your acknowledgement must meet the requirements of the venue where signed. If CA requires the full name of every individual in the acknowledgement then that's what you do, you aren't performing notary duties in PA.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/31/12 9:27pm
Msg #416741

I don't quite understand how in CA you can question how an

attorney prepared the document. I know you have to comply with CA law as far as the certificate is concerned. Is it a situation where you can attach a separate certificate for each signer?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/1/12 12:32am
Msg #416746

You might be thinking too far ahead. The first thing you should figure out is if this document will be recorded and IF Pennsylvania requires it in that format. If it is "REQUIRED" than and only then can you even consider using the preprinted Ack... otherwise, you need to use the CA one anyway.

Way too many CA notaries think that it is okay to use a preprinted ACK certificate if it is simply going out of state. That's not the case. It has to be a document that will be recorded and that the format used is required for recording.

I've yet to find a single state that has a REQUIRED certificate for recording. Not even California requires a specific certificate for acknowledgments for notarizations done out of state.

Reply by MrEd_Ca on 4/1/12 9:02am
Msg #416757

I figure if the document has been prepared by an attorney he has done it before & probably knows what he is doing. As to required or not, since he is in Pa he knows their laws, & while aware that Ca has notary laws, he choose to use those of Pa. So, as to if the certificate is required by Pa it probably isn't but it is the certificate, & wording that he choose. For me, with this document, that is as close to being 'required' as I am going to get on a Sunday.

The certificate wording it self is Pa compliant as to weather or not it is destined to record, I do not know. I do know the author has, most likely, done this before & I know that I have not. Therefore, I hesitate to change the document that has been presented to me. I do have Ca Loose Certs as back up though.

I was hoping someone had a legal reference, either CA or PA, 'requiring' complete names in the body of the certificate. I know it is the custom, & that most if not all county recorders require it before recording, but is it in a law, code, or Gov't edict somewhere that can save me from this angst?

And thank you all for your reply s.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 4/1/12 6:06pm
Msg #416787

I know first hand hat a lot of attorneys have ZERO clue what proper notarial wording is for their own states, if their states have any at all. Most of them just make it up or borrow something they find online or from a book...or even something in old software. California attorneys are extremely bad about it. it's been years now and I constantly see outdated certificates on legal documents drawn up by attorneys. Let me tell you... most of them do not appreciate it when I gently correct them and give them the information they need to correct it. The vast majority say, "I've always done it this way and you're the first person to say anything about it." IN other words, I'm wrong... even if I'm pointing right to the code.

But all that said... it still doesn't matter. The notarial certificate is YOUR responsibility, not the attorney's. You're in California and you need to follow California law above anything else, even fr documents going outside of California.

If you aren't sure (or willing to find out) if the pre-printed certificate is a required format for that state, then you have to use a California compliant certificate, But as I've said before... I've yet to learn of any state the has required wording for notarizations done out of state.

Simply cross out the improper certificate and write something like this:

"Please see attached for CA Civil Code Section 1189 compliant acknowledgment."

That really should be all you need. I do not believe in just saying, "See attached," because it leaves you open to questions as to why you didn't just use their pre-printed form. When you reference the code, you're showing that you know what you're doing and you're giving them a reference for the future, too. Also, it forces them to look up the code first before complaining to you.

Reply by cawest/PA on 4/1/12 5:29pm
Msg #416785

Being in PA I would not have them sign under that format. Never have I seen it under the John and Jane Doe* together but rather a line for each party. Attorney's do make mistakes as well, as here in town I can recommend 2 that will never make a mistake and 1 that I reluctantly go to his office when he calls me as there is always a problem. I would call in to check ... never know who typed the documents and if they were reviewed before mailing out.