Posted by Daniel Woodman on 3/9/12 10:06am
Msg #414411

Reduced fees for REFUSAL TO SIGN

Hey all, I have started to send an e-mail with my own Terms and Conditions as a reply to Confirmation e-mails. Some of the things I discuss are:
"My agreed fee is based on a standard package of around 100 pages. Packages of more than 100 pages are subject to fee renegotiation." (because of the 150-page VA packages they'll just SPRING on you!) and
"I'm an independent contractor, so you don't get to tell me what I have to wear to a closing on a Friday night in Kentucky." (paraphrased! :~).

I have also included this paragraph. I think WE ALL NEED TO STAND UP ON THIS ISSUE AND STOP LETTING SIGNING/TITLE COMPANIES TAKE ADVANTAGE OF OUR PRECIOUS TIME!!!

The contracted fee we have agreed upon is to compensate me for printings costs, travel costs, printing time, travel time, time at the table, and my service of attending and facilitating the signing. If I complete my assignment to the extent and standard expected, meeting all requirements as outlined by the Signing and/or Title company, I expect my fee to be paid in full, regardless of whether the borrower chooses to actually sign the documents. By the time of the signing, the borrower should be fully educated on the terms and conditions of their new loan and "sold" on the fact that signing is in their best interest. If they are not, I am not at fault; this responsibility lies with the lender, title company, or broker. I am not a salesman. Therefore, my fee for a borrower's refusal to sign at the table must be my full contract price in order for me to complete any assignment. As long as I fulfill all duties required of me up to the point of sitting down with the borrower(s), I expect 100% compensation unless I am somehow shown at fault. Please add this note to my permanent file in your system.
Thank you.

What do you think?

Reply by Alex Leandro on 3/9/12 10:22am
Msg #414412

I agree with you. The only thing I would change or take out in my part is the part about what to wear.

As a notary or a person dealing with a business transaction I believe you should always wear a business attire regardless of the day or time of the signing. it’s just my way.

But everything else... I agree!!

Reply by Daniel Woodman on 3/9/12 10:41am
Msg #414417

I totally understand. I'm originally from the northeast, but Kentucky is just...different. We're laid-back down here. I wear jeans to my accounting job on Fridays at a billion-dollar company. So when I have to go home just to put on khakis and a collar, it's irritating. Plus there's the whole issue of "independence" as a contractor. Under IRS guidelines, they can't set rules for us as they would for an employee.

I get your point, though...professionalism and representation.

Reply by Carolyn Bodley on 3/10/12 9:00am
Msg #414498

Re: So are you saying ...

that you only go home to change clothes?--and that the loan package was printed at your billion-dollar company, using their printer, their toner and their paper? If so, are you compensating your company?

I don't recall from your original post the number of pages you referred to in a package -- 100, I believe -- does that mean that if a package is less than 100 pages, you reduce your rate or if the signing is around the corner, you reduce your rate?

The confirmation page clearly states what you will be paid for a no-sign. You have an option to take the signing, or turn it down if the terms don't meet your requirements. I no longer perform signings, but in the six years of doing so, I had TWO no-signs.

I believe if you are actually sending your email, you are shooting yourself in the foot -- but that is just my personal opinion. I don't sign-on to NotRot much lately, but I don't recall seeing your name much. Excuse me if you have become a regular and I've not noticed. Again, my personal opinion and observation, but it appears that your replys reflect entitlement and that you *deserve* compensation because you are in demand due to the lack of notaries in your area -- signing agents going to borrowers' houses, place of business, restaurant, library, coffee shop, etc. has been going on for a number of years -- who did they use before you came along?

Reply by Clem/CA on 3/9/12 10:34am
Msg #414414

Although I agree, I think they would just go down their list and say goodbye to you. They are also running their business the way they see fit and have the right to do so. The way I see it you have the right to decline their contract and say no to the job. I would find companies more condusive to your needs and stick with them. That being said, let us know how this works out for you, and good luck!

Reply by Daniel Woodman on 3/9/12 10:45am
Msg #414420

I have certainly lost a couple, but at least I get PAID by the ones I work with!

I have two things going for me: 1. There aren't many other notaries in my locale of about 150K people, so "their list" doesn't contain many other options, and 2. more importantly, I have a reputation for HIGH QUALITY work, so more companies are willing to work with me on this issue because they're happy to eat the cost on a rare refusal when I'll complete 20 others error-free.

Reply by Daniel Woodman on 3/9/12 10:49am
Msg #414422

By the same token, though, I don't mind reduced fees for Refusals from a company I do a lot of business with. If they're sending me 20 a year and I have one refuse, I'm not going to make a stink about it. I'm more concerned with the new ones or the ones I only hear from every couple of years. Not only is their reputation more sketchy in my eyes, but if that one appointment is a refusal, I will probably never get my money back out of that company.

Reply by Eve/VA on 3/9/12 10:37am
Msg #414415

Excellent n/m

Reply by Eve/VA on 3/9/12 10:41am
Msg #414416

I do keep a nice scarf and a blazer in the car in case I'm caught unaware and not dressed as well as I'd like.

I think there is a "casual chic" look that works just fine. There are extremes to everything so the hiring companies are probably just covering their bases.

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 3/9/12 10:43am
Msg #414419

There are jeans that can have a professional look... n/m

Reply by Daniel Woodman on 3/9/12 10:46am
Msg #414421

And khakis that can look like you pulled them out of a

dumpster!

Reply by Daniel Woodman on 3/9/12 10:54am
Msg #414425

Caveat: I do realize that most Signing Companies have to take a reduced fee when the borrower refuses to sign. So I sympathize with their predicament and desire to do what's best for their own business. However, THEY should understand OUR situation as well. With that in mind, every signing company should have a similar paragraph in THEIR agreement with Title companies or Lenders, to receive just compensation for Refusals. It seems like everyone just lets the lenders bully them down the line. When there's a lot of volume and Refusals are rare, then I understand not wanting to rock the boat. But if you're a SC that has placed yourself in that situation with your TC or Lender, then you need to be ready to shell out the bucks to the sad notary that you just called for the first time in two years, and he/she had the borrower refuse to sign at the table!

Reply by Eve/VA on 3/9/12 10:58am
Msg #414427

I lived in Berea, KY ... are you near there? n/m

Reply by Daniel Woodman on 3/9/12 11:11am
Msg #414432

Re: I lived in Berea, KY ... are you near there?

Nope--western KY.

Reply by Buddy Young on 3/9/12 10:57am
Msg #414426

Re: I wear jeans. n/m

Reply by Daniel Woodman on 3/9/12 11:11am
Msg #414433

You REBEL! ;~) n/m

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/9/12 11:17am
Msg #414435

I fired a company in 2009 because their policy was no-pay for no-sign or even for no-fund! I was a team player the first few times beause they were a decent client. However, I finally got to the point where it happened one too many times and I terminated our relationship. I replaced them with better clients and I have never regretted it.

Reply by Roger_OH on 3/9/12 11:26am
Msg #414436

I think they'll just go to the next notary on their list...

who is less troublesome to them.

Reply by CorpJen on 3/9/12 11:36am
Msg #414437

Correct.. I would not hire you.. and also make a note to never call you. Wearing unprofessional attire, and your email has an attitude tone very negative.

Reply by Daniel Woodman on 3/9/12 12:04pm
Msg #414439

Life isn't always just rose petals and cupcakes. I mean, I'm not negative because I started out that way. I've been soured by 9 years of reading one-sided terms & conditions.

Regarding "unprofessional attire," who is to say what is professional and what is not? Just because a suit and tie is the epitome of professionalism in New York City doesn't mean it will be looked upon favorably in Lucknow, India...Kigali, Rwanda...or Lexington, Kentucky. The United States is a melting pot, right? --So notaries should be allowed to establish their own protocol regarding language, dress, presentation, etc. More companies should be concerned with feedback AFTER the close rather than dictating the rules of the close. Just because I wear a suit and tie doesn't mean I will CONDUCT myself in a professional manner or perform an error-free closing.

Reply by IAC on 3/9/12 12:40pm
Msg #414444

Regarding the reduced fees, I have been in a few situations were I have had reduced fee.Over the yrs. I have made it a point to call the borrower not only to confirm the call but to make sure they have been notified by the lender and are in complete agreement with the figures. If they indicate with the least bit of concern I ask them to call the get the issue resolved prior to closing. With gas prices -why do you want to chance a refusal.
Regarding attire, it is common sense to dress as professional. There are dress jeans and there are kick back jeans. My day job as a account/office manager I refuse to look at a job application from someone who looks like they are going to a amusement park when they leave my office. As they say first impression, lasting impression. Although, you might not think you need to make a impression on the borrower, just remember if you inform them you are independent and your attire is less than professional, what do you think their thoughts are of you!

Reply by Mike_D on 3/10/12 10:57pm
Msg #414527

dude, youre a clown. is it really that difficult to dress decently? Lexington, Ky sure isnt Rwanda. you sound like a complete idiot really. take a picture of you in your overalls for your next closing and post it for everyone to see.

Reply by ikando on 3/9/12 3:28pm
Msg #414459

CorpJen, am I to understand that if you contract with someone to perform a service over which that person has no control, you would consider their attitude as negative when they expect to be paid for those contracted services? As I read the OP's contract terms (taking the attire factor as tongue-in-cheek), he's only trying to convey his expectation for payment for completing his duties you hired him to do.

I have a similar confirmation response that I send to those hiring me stating that I expect to be paid REGARDLESS whether those who hire me get paid. If I hire someone to handle business for me, I expect and allow funds for them to be paid.

There are too many costs born by the NSAs which are not a part of the SC's or Title's or Lender's job to get a loan signed. If they don't make money on one particular loan, they still (for the most part) get some sort of salary or payment from others. However, each NSA job is independent of all others, and each should be paid as such. Hence my requirement that if I am hired and do the job correctly, but the loan doesn't go forward FOR ANY REASON, I expect 100% agreed fee payment within 30 days.

Reply by Karla/OR on 3/9/12 3:50pm
Msg #414461

Daniel, I can somewhat understand your feelings. The difference I see here is that if you go into the grocery store, doctor's ofice, law office, etc. you are paying THEM to do what YOU want them to do. In your case, you are being hired and paid by a company that has the will to tell you what THEY need and want from you. Big difference. I conform to what the SS is asking of me, UNLESS it is a totally outrageous request.

As far as dress code, you didn't really specify what you wear to appointments so can't commment on that. I can comment on what I wear and feel comfortable with. I do wear blue jeans occassionally, BUT I wear a very nice sweater, shirt, and shoes. My hear is done as best I know how and wear a miminum amount of makeup. I have NEVER felt under or over-dressed.

Have a good weekend.

Reply by Karla/OR on 3/9/12 3:52pm
Msg #414462

Sorry fo rmistype: that would be "hair" is done. :O) n/m

Reply by MikeC/TX on 3/10/12 1:07am
Msg #414487

It's a bit wordy...

I'd drop everything starting with "By the time of the signing..." - you really don't need to explain your rationale.

In fact, you could probably reduce it to something like: "The contracted fee we have agreed upon is due once the assignment is completed, and is not contingent on the borrower's willingness to sign or the loan funding" - just off the cuff and could probably be cleaned up a bit, but it's basically what you want to say, right? All the the verbiage just serves to confuse things.

Reply by Daniel Woodman on 3/12/12 10:11am
Msg #414576

Re: It's a bit wordy...

Good feedback. I do tend to overstate things a little. :~) My intent is to clarify or explain, but you're right--it often tends to have the opposite effect.