Posted by MichaelB/IL on 3/12/12 1:43pm
Msg #414626

Signatures

Okay, so my name vs identity topic has gotten heated. So here is another one I've always wondered about. Title companies always ask for consumers to sign their name exactly as it appears, but individuals often adopt an unique signature that does not sign out their name in grammar school, text book cursive. This is what is on their identification, but we are then asked to have them sign a different signature than what is on the ID, so it can match the name on the documents. A legal signature is whatever an individual has adopted as their mark, and is legally binding (I'm not an attorney, so this is not legal advise, just my opinion from what I have read).

We are thus not matching the signature to the ID.

Thoughts?

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 3/12/12 1:58pm
Msg #414632

I'm going for popcorn now! lol

I'll tell you why this happens, Michael - for the same reason you noted below, about getting a different answer within the same "company" depending on whom you ask. Or what day it is, or if it's a month with an R in it.

You will not find a single statute stipulating how a signature mark should appear. <-- period. As I've said many times over, if there ever WAS such a statute written, it would have to condition itself to apply only to "legible signatures that can be read as text" and exclude anyone with a scribble.

Unfortunately, there is/has been a tremendous brain-drain - I think something like 40,000 jobs lost in the mtg industry. You have tons of "niche-trained" people now, who only know 1 very tiny part of a large whole, and that doesn't always enable a person to make ANY kind of common-sense judgement calls. AND .... AND (you thought I was done?) ... AND the industry that used to be very much alive & thriving here in MI is advertising jobs that pay less than HALF of what they used to. So. I'm just sayin' (as they say).

So, you end up with what is my own personal nemesis - the person who insists on doing some particular thing simply "because that's how I've always done it, that's how I was trained to do it."

Makes me want to bang my head against a wall.

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/12/12 2:02pm
Msg #414633

Re: I'm going for popcorn now! lol

LOL-Love this answer.

Reply by MW/VA on 3/12/12 7:48pm
Msg #414670

I like Renee's response, also. Thanks to PAW, I do fully

understand that a person's legal signature is just that. I usually cover it by asking the signer if whatever their scribble is, does it represent say their first name, middle initial & last name. Of course their answer is yes, and we continue from there. After all, I'm there to witness pen to paper, and what the signature looks like isn't that big a deal. :-)

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 3/12/12 2:04pm
Msg #414634

seems like your a newbie...but I always tell the BO/signers

to sign their names on the dotted line. HOW they sign is not my problem. If I believe they are who they say they are, and have shown proof, i.e., state id or driver's license, then I'm satisfied.

I've closed on many loans where the BO's signature on the loan documents match their signature on their ID card, and I've seen where the signers specifically sign exactly how the loan documents are typed.

I believe that NSA's should not advise BO/signers on "how" they should sign as this is not our place. NSA's main duty is not only to explain the type of document they're about to sign, but to verify their identification and then witness them sign the documents.

If their signature is not readable, oh well, not my issue nor do I care. As long as it matches whats on their ID, that's legal enough for me.

Also, if lender wants a redraw of loan docs, then that's on the lender. However, they can not ask the BO to "change" the way they sign, if that's not the way they legally sign their name.

This topic is going to go on and on...

Who are you?

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 3/12/12 2:07pm
Msg #414636

have to add that is very rare for a BO, NOT to sign how they

normally sign their name and I'd say about 98% of the time, its the same as how they signed their ID...

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/12/12 2:38pm
Msg #414639

Re: seems like your a newbie...but I always tell the BO/signers

I have a fourteen year mortgage background. I have done sales, processed, closed, underwritten and operations management, but I have only had my notary signing business two years, so I guess that would still make me a newbie.

Almost all title companies specifically state in their instructions that the borrower is to sign as their name appears, so I tell the borrower that this is a request from the title company. From my experience this is how all title companies operate. I don't really agree with it, but I am not an attorney, and I am hired by the title company to have the transaction signed based on their instructions. So do you ignore these instructions?

Who are you?

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 3/12/12 4:05pm
Msg #414649

With your background, you probably know ...

It all boils down to 2 people - title post-close, and lender's funder. Are they well-trained, well-versed in what is legal and what is just plain stupid? If they're not certain, will they ASK or just fall back on what they've "always done"? Are they 'niche-trained' AND trained to follow a list and don't ask questions, don't talk to your neighbor and no potty-breaks?

Like you, I've sat in just about all the chairs in this industry - but I've never been one to accept anything arbitrarily. I ask, I research, I find out. I've learned (as I think you have, and many do) that it matters not one iota what your title or position is, your degree, your years of experience - ANYONE can be wrong or pointless.

We get to play footsies with these two people, and they happen to have all the power - so, you learn to dance. =)

Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/12/12 2:05pm
Msg #414635

I think the whole point of a notary is the notary states that he/she knows that the person who appeared before him/her is the one who executed the document. It is up to the notary to demand whatever proof the notary needs to be reasonably certain of that. If the handwriting is the same style, but the DL has just a middle initial in the signature and the signature on the document is the full middle name, that's no problem as far as the signature goes (figuring out of the full middle name actually belongs to the person in front of the notary is a different thread).

If the person signs in front of me, then I'm absolutely certain the person in front of me signed the document (again, checking that's their name is a different thread). If the person comes with a presigned document, acknowledges it, and shows me a DL with a different handwriting style, I'll ask questions to understand why they don't look the same. The person will be signing my journal, so I'll be able to see that they are indeed able to sign that way.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/12/12 2:44pm
Msg #414640

Let the games begin!

VT Syrup and Ms. Rivera are right on in their responses, but let me back up because I think you may be confused by the lender instructions to have a borrower sign their name "exactly as it appears." That doesn't mean anyone has to be able to actually read the signature. If the borrower signs with a squiggle and says that's how they sign, then that's their signature. (IMO, the sloppier the better; that way no lender can say how they signed or didn't sign)

Something to be aware of, however, is that if their signature line has 3 names, for example, but they're signing with only two distinct squiggles, then they better add a third squiggle somewhere. (But even this is muddy territory.) However, if you can actually read the signature and see that they're leaving out letters and/or names, all the while whining that "this is my signature," you can't let them get away with it. If they get beligerent, I sweetly tell them they're signing that way at their own peril and could be facing a $400 redraw and another session with me. That usually snaps them out of it.
(One person recently told me to blow off despite all my warnings and pleadings and the next day I got a hysterical call from the LO who said the borrower absolutely couldn't sign that way. Hee Hee. Little Miss know-it-all had to re-sign.)

(The "opposite" is pretty much true, as well, these days. Don't let borrowers "oversign." Used to be OK, but looks like those days are over.)

As far as lenders asking them to sign their names the way it's printed on the docs, which may be different than their signature on the IDs that we are shown, I don't see the problem. The lender is requiring they sign the way the docs are printed; they are not telling them to sign they way "they always do." They are saying: This is your "legal signature" for purposes of these docs ... and as far as I know, your "legal" signature is how you sign your name at any given moment - not how you "always" sign it, not how you signed it 30 years ago and not how you might sign it tomorrow. That's why I always tell cranky borrowers that the lender doesn't care how you sign your name, they want you to sign the way your name is printed, whether anyone can read it or not.

Reply by NJDiva on 3/12/12 10:22pm
Msg #414679

Amen GG! I tell the bo's the same thing...

"The lender is requiring they sign the way the docs are printed; they are not telling them to sign they way "they always do." They are saying: This is your "legal signature" for purposes of these docs ... and as far as I know, your "legal" signature is how you sign your name at any given moment - not how you "always" sign it, not how you signed it 30 years ago and not how you might sign it tomorrow. That's why I always tell cranky borrowers that the lender doesn't care how you sign your name, they want you to sign the way your name is printed, whether anyone can read it or not."

I actually had an SS call me and say "how come you didn't have the bo's sign their name exactly as it appears?" "Didn't you know they had to do that?" My response was "I made it very clear that that's what the instructions told me to do, that's what I'm paid to tell them and to understand that the documents could potentially be rejected and they would have to start over from scratch. I then ask them if they understand. So if after I've made that declaration and they insist upon signing the way they want, there's nothing more I can do. I've done due diligence."

They were still not happy. Ugh!

This bo made a huge tado on Fri. about the signature. I said the same spiel as above. She resented the fact that she couldn't do her nondescript squiggle. I told her that she could sign however she felt comfortable, I was just passing on the information that I am paid to pass on. From then on forget it, she started accusingly asking why the title doc's did not have her loan number and information on them. She had me contact them and she proceeded to tell them that they needed to make changes and that she didn't feel comfortable signing them without it.

She had a problem with every single document thereafter. Finally she said, "I don't know how they can make me sign like this, I can say this isn't my signature and that I signed under duress." I immediately told her we had to stop the signing and I had to leave. I told her I, by law, was not allowed to continue the closing as she expressed to me that she felt like she was signing under duress. I told her that she cannot under any circumstances say or even infer that to me.

She changed her tune and was saying she could say that, not that that's how she felt.

She said she would feel better if she could sign her signature. I told her that I never told her not to, I just gave the instructions I am paid to give. We then proceeded to resign all the documents with her (what she said was her) real signature-a wavy line. Was I grateful and happy to get out of there!!!!

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/13/12 2:33am
Msg #414701

Re: Let the games begin!

I see your point regarding the legal signature of that moment. I never quibble about whether a signature is legible. I'm not the handwriting police. The main types that I chuckle at is when their signature is one mark. Sometimes resembling an ampersand. These are the ones that I usually advise of the title companies instructions. Otherwise, if the signature has the distinction of first name, middle initial/name (if on the docs), and last name I see no reason to make a stink. I just don't see the point of it. Being on the lender side for so many years, it doesn't really matter.

Reply by CinOH on 3/12/12 4:11pm
Msg #414651

Is this a joke?

Just in case it's not:

To ask borrowers to sign their name exactly as it appears simply means to have them sign their name exactly as it is spelled out underneath the signature lines on the document.

It has nothing to do with matching signatures to ID cards.

As an extra security measure I do match the signature on the ID to see if they match but that has nothing to do with Title's instructions. That's part of the identity process that I do. Others may not.

Reply by Patricia/VT on 3/12/12 7:35pm
Msg #414668

I had a borrower whose Canadian Passport & his Vermont Operator's license both had been signed with Chinese characters, and that's how he signed the loan docs, although his name had been transliterated below the signature line. There were no repercussions.

Reply by Buddy Young on 3/12/12 9:44pm
Msg #414673

I had a signing once where the wifes name was listed first, middle, last. She didn't sign that way, her scriggle was her middle and then her last name. I told her that title required her to sign as was listed in the documents, she refused saying that wasn't her signature. I had them call their LO and he told them that if she didn't sign that way the papers would come back. Basically what I told them. She then, on urging from her husband, signed as stated in the docs. She couldn't harldly write her name that way, but she wrote out her first name and then her scribble.

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/13/12 2:38am
Msg #414703

Why would this be a joke. As you can see there are a lot of opinions.

If I may ask, you state you match the signature on the ID as an extra security measure, and I would assert that is the reason of needing to verify identity with an ID that has both a picture and a signature, so with this we certainly agree, but what do you match it against?

Reply by CinOH on 3/13/12 12:37pm
Msg #414752

Why would this be a joke?

For many reasons, but mainly because anyone and everyone doing loan signings should know what "have the borrowers sign their name exactly as it appears means." That's basic knowledge. Especially for someone who has been in the mortgage industry for years.

...but what do you match it against?
I have them sign my journal and compare the signature on their ID to the journal.

Reply by bob/IA on 3/12/12 10:17pm
Msg #414678

Seems to me when instructions say to sign exactly as name appears below the signature line what they mainly want is if the borrowers name is typed as Daniel Smith is for him not to sign as Dan Smith or D Smith.

Reply by MichiganAl on 3/12/12 11:03pm
Msg #414687

Here's an easy way that's never failed me

I tell them if their signature is legible, sign as it appears (If they whine, I show them the instructions from the t.c. or lender. If they still refuse, fine, I've done my job. I can't grab their hand and force them). If their signature is NOT legible, I tell them to go for it. No one can argue about what letter is or isn't in their signature if it's just a bunch of scribble. I've never had one come back.

But I agree that it's just silly that these instructions even exist. If you've identified them and if their signature matches their I.D., they should be able to sign away. Unfortunately, right or wrong, if we don't please or hiring parties, we won't work for very long.

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/13/12 2:44am
Msg #414705

Thank you!

I think it's silly. That's it.

Reply by HisHughness on 3/13/12 12:21am
Msg #414694

***A legal signature is whatever an individual has adopted as their mark, and is legally binding***

As I have noted several times on this forum, I don't think there is any such thing as a "legal signature" in the sense you are using it. People may have <usual> signatures, but I don't know of any process by which a signature is designated a "legal" signature. In my view, a person's legal signature is the signature he employs when himself signs his name.

Reply by HisHughness on 3/13/12 12:24am
Msg #414695

S/B: a person's legal signature is the signature he employs when <he> himself signs his name.

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/13/12 2:42am
Msg #414704

I completely agree. That's kind of my point. What is the purpose of telling a consumer to not sign their usual signature? Both are legally binding, because they have signed it.

Reply by Clem/CA on 3/13/12 11:18am
Msg #414725

I had a guy sign his first name then sign his last name right on top of his first name so you were not able to read any part of it. Asked if this was what he did all the time and he said Yes. The Loan closed and I got paid.