Posted by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/1/12 12:26pm
Msg #413619
This from Chicago Title:
The very first page of escrow docs for a loan signing I'm doing today was this document:
In our continued effort to minimize our "carbon footprint" and become a "green company," we will no longer provide a photocopy of your loan and escrow documents at the sign off appointment.
Please choose one of the following delivery methods for your documents:
1. eMail to:
or
2. CD mailed to:
If you do not have computer access we are more than happy to provide you with a printed copy. Please just let us know. Thank you for assisting us with our commitment to a better environment.
(Then borrowers sign.)
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Reply by JPH13/MO on 3/1/12 12:30pm
Msg #413620
Wish they all did this! n/m
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Reply by Claudine Osborne on 3/1/12 1:47pm
Msg #413626
Re: Wish they all did this!
That would be nice!!
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Reply by dutchcloser on 3/1/12 1:54pm
Msg #413629
Re: Wish they all did this!
That is great but at the same time will that give them the opp to lower your fees???
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Reply by Scriba/NM on 3/1/12 1:56pm
Msg #413630
And then...........
I think this is great from a "Green" standpoint - however, I am sure they will want to reduce the notary's fee since only one copy of loan docs would be required.
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Reply by DaveCA/CA on 3/1/12 2:53pm
Msg #413636
I like copies for mess-ups
If lenders weren't picky about mistakes and would allow borrower to just line through and initial, that would be great.
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Reply by NJDiva on 3/1/12 3:00pm
Msg #413639
I would say to the company...well you're paying for a copy
I may as well just take it. Plus, I agree with you Dave, I too like to have a copy. Inevitably there seems to be a mistake. And it ALWAYS comes in handy.
Plus, how are people going to peruse the doc's during the rescission period? They're certainly not going to sit at their desk and read each one. Doesn't sound reasonable to me.
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Reply by Alz on 3/1/12 3:32pm
Msg #413645
I'm with you & would make a copy of the critical docs n/m
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Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/1/12 3:54pm
Msg #413648
Re: I like copies for mess-ups
As far as I know, they all allow corredtions, except Provident, of course. I've never had a reject cos of a crx...
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Reply by LynnNC on 3/1/12 11:00pm
Msg #413707
I would rather have a copy for corrections. n/m
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Reply by NJDiva on 3/1/12 2:56pm
Msg #413638
Of course they'll want to lower the fee...
It's not affecting them if we don't supply a copy for their records. But they'll sure get the benefit!!!!!! Grrrrrr
Please take back that you wish they would all do this...tee hee!!!
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Reply by Carolyn Breckenridge on 3/1/12 4:59pm
Msg #413659
Re: And then...........
I have a title company that does this. They pay me the same because I print the closing docs. (Just one set)
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Reply by A S Johnson on 3/1/12 3:53pm
Msg #413647
What about the Right to Cancel that you are to give each borrower 2opies before leaving? The Notice of Non- recission.
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Reply by snowflake/PA on 3/1/12 5:15pm
Msg #413661
Re: What about those with no computer? Had a signer
today who is 70 years old and without one. Doesn't want one.
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Reply by Linda Juenger on 3/1/12 5:48pm
Msg #413665
Re: What about those with no computer? Had a signer
I wish we had the choice to ask the borrower how THEY prefer their copy. I'd be more than happy to print out the criticals. Hud, Til. Note, Mortgage, RTC, 1st payment.
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Reply by Jean Henke on 3/1/12 6:10pm
Msg #413671
It is a TILA/RESPA law 2 SIGNED COPiES must go home with EACH borrower. Not 1, but 2. If this isn't happening it opens them up to RESCISSION up to 3 YEARS, not 3 days.............
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/1/12 6:15pm
Msg #413672
2 copies - not two signed copies..
But I agree - not giving them these copies at the table would be, I believe, a violation.
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Reply by Jean Henke on 3/1/12 6:35pm
Msg #413673
Re: 2 copies - not two signed copies..
I'm sorry Linda but it is in fact 2 signed copies. I am a loan auditor and fraud analizer. Please feel free to check the law on Tila/Respa.
They must be filled in as well. No blanks. Common sense tells you a RTC is worthless to a homeowner if he gets home and the date to start the recission and the date the recission expires is not filled out. The lender should have this all done for you and in the package but in reality its almost never is the case.
Actual case: non-borrowing spouse did not get a copy of the RTC. The mortgage company was audited by the feds. The non-borrowing home owner was sent a notice 8 months after the loan closed to this fact. At that time the non-borrowing homeowner was given the opportunity to cancel the loan which would include a complete REFUND of all interest paid since the inception of the loan. This is why the ss, title companies and lenders flip out when a RTC is not in the package at closing for owner occupied properties. It will cost them big $$$ if they are caught.
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/1/12 6:37pm
Msg #413674
Re: 2 copies - not two signed copies..
"23(b) Notice of right to rescind.
1. Who receives notice. Each consumer entitled to rescind must be given:
• Two copies of the rescission notice.
• The material disclosures. "
http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/6500-2380.html
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Reply by Jean Henke on 3/1/12 6:38pm
Msg #413675
Re: 2 copies - not two signed copies..
2 completed copies.
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/1/12 6:40pm
Msg #413676
Completed copies yes - I agree...
signed - not required - but I always have my borrowers sign them anyway.
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Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/1/12 6:42pm
Msg #413677
Also meant to comment on this..
"They must be filled in as well. No blanks. Common sense tells you a RTC is worthless to a homeowner if he gets home and the date to start the recission and the date the recission expires is not filled out. The lender should have this all done for you and in the package but in reality its almost never is the case. "
And this is just MY experience - I haven't had to fill out dates on the NORTC in 4.5 years out of 5 doing this - they're always filled out for me as the fields are populated when the docs are drawn.
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Reply by JanetK_CA on 3/3/12 12:59am
Msg #413800
Re: Also meant to comment on this..
Linda, that's probably a function of which lender packages you're seeing. I've found it pretty common to have the dates not filled in. In fact, I believe that the Provident Funding RTC forms are always left blank. I also commonly see dates that are incorrect, with instructions to fix them if wrong. (I always have the borrower do that.) Then there are the BofA packages, where the dates are always wrong, but the instructions say to NOT correct them, which apparently is perfectly legal - if not ethical. I don't do too many BofA packages, but I always make sure the BOs know when the correct rescission ending date is.
BTW, Jean, I've also seen a few RTC forms that didn't require a signature at all. I've always heard that the requirement is for each borrower/person on title to RECEIVE their two copies. The signature is just their acknowledgment that they did.
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Reply by Jean Henke on 3/1/12 6:44pm
Msg #413678
Re: 2 copies - not two signed copies..
This is not a pissing contest. Do as you wish.
Bottom line the notary is not legally responsible for any of this. However it does give you kudos when you save the companies butts by noticing and bringing the error to their attention in time to correct it.
Notaries do all kinds of crazy things without realizing what they are doing. Nor are they legally responsible, in most cases,as long as they verified the signers are who they say they are and sign. I just had a notary say she has always printed 3 copies. One blank for the borrower to take home and 2 completely signed copies to send back to the lender. FRAUD FRAUD FRAUD alert. There should never be more than 1 original Note and 1 original DOT. Certified signed copies are ok if they are marked as such.
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Reply by MichiganAl on 3/3/12 1:44am
Msg #413801
Sorry Jean, but that's just not true
I know what happens in this industry. Someone learns from someone else who came before them. They teach them the way they did it, cite regulations and facts, and everyone passes it down to everyone else like it's gospel. Problem is, no one actually reads the laws they think they're citing. Everyone really should actually read Reg Z (That's the TILA law). And RESPA relates to fees, GFEs, and HUDs. Not RTCs. There's a lot of misinformation spread on here that could be avoided if everyone took a few minutes to read it:
(b)(1) Notice of right to rescind. In a transaction subject to rescission, a creditor shall deliver two copies of the notice of the right to rescind to each consumer entitled to rescind (one copy to each if the notice is delivered in electronic form in accordance with the consumer consent and other applicable provisions of the E-Sign Act)...
Notice it says one copy if delivered electronically.
(2) Proper form of notice. To satisfy the disclosure requirements of paragraph (b)(1) of this section, the creditor shall provide the appropriate model form in Appendix H of this part or a substantially similar notice.
If you look at Appendix H., there's nothing indicating it must be signed. And there's nothing anywhere in Reg. Z that states that. I've closed for several lenders that have an R.T.C. provided in the package that is not signed. Citimortgage is one that comes to mind as I've done about 30 of them for ServiceLink in the last two weeks. I'd be happy to send you a copy of one to show you.
Here's the link to Reg Z. on the FDIC website:
http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/6500-1600.html#fdic6500226.23
And here's the Appendix H example from the FDIC:
F RIGHT TO CANCEL
You are entering into a transaction that will result in a [mortgage/lien/security interest] [on/in] your home. You have a legal right under federal law to cancel this transaction, without cost, within three business days from whichever of the following events occurs last:
(1) the date of the transaction, which is _______ ; or
(2) the date you received your Truth in Lending disclosures; or
(3) the date you received this notice of your right to cancel.
If you cancel the transaction, the [mortgage/lien/security interest] is also cancelled. Within 20 calendar days after we receive your notice, we must take the steps necessary to reflect the fact that the [mortgage/lien/security interest] [on/in] your home has been cancelled, and we must return to you any money or property you have given to us or to anyone else in connection with this transaction.
You may keep any money or property we have given you until we have done the things mentioned above, but you must then offer to return the money or property. If it is impractical or unfair for you to return the property, you must offer its reasonable value. You may offer to return the property at your home or at the location of the property. Money must be returned to the address below. If we do not take possession of the money or property within 20 calendar days of your offer, you may keep it without further obligation.
If you decide to cancel this transaction, you may do so by notifying us in writing, at
(creditor's name and business address).
You may use any written statement that is signed and dated by you and states your intention to cancel, or you may use this notice by dating and signing below. Keep one copy of this notice because it contains important information about your rights.
If you cancel by mail or telegram, you must send the notice no later than midnight of (date) (or midnight of the third business day following the latest of the three events listed above). If you send or deliver your written notice to cancel some other way, it must be delivered to the above address no later than that time.
I WISH TO CANCEL
_______ _______
Consumer's Signature Date
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Reply by ReneeK_MI on 3/2/12 5:26am
Msg #413716
Here are the laws, Jean - NO signature required
I cite the TIL Act below, and surely you're aware that RESPA is an entirely separate Act and does not govern the disclosures being discussed here.
The TIL and the RTC are governed by the TILA (FDIC). "Note #37" is a footnote w/in the Act, and the TILA specifies that the footnotes are a binding part of the Act itself. Disclosures "MAY" include a signature - not "must", but "may". Please also view the FDIC's sample forms, to which I've linked below.
The 'E-Sign' Act does specify that a single digital copy of a disclosure satisfies the requirement when multiple hard-copy disclosures are required. There are requirements for consumer agreement to receive digital copies - but we'll tackle the E-Sign Act some other time. =)
---------------------------------
§ 226.17 General disclosure requirements.
(a) Form of disclosures. (1) The creditor shall make the disclosures required by this subpart clearly and conspicuously in writing, in a form that the consumer may keep. The disclosures required by this subpart may be provided to the consumer in electronic form, subject to compliance with the consumer consent and other applicable provisions of the Electronic Signatures in Global and National Commerce Act (E-Sign Act) (15 U.S.C. 7001 et seq.). The disclosures required by §§ 226.17(g), 226.19(b), and 226.24 may be provided to the consumer in electronic form without regard to the consumer consent or other provisions of the E-Sign Act in the circumstances set forth in those sections. The disclosures shall be grouped together, shall be segregated from everything else, and shall not contain any information not directly related37 to the disclosures required under § 226.18 or § 226.47.38 The itemization of the amount financed under § 226.18(c)(1) must be separate from the other disclosures under § 226.18, except for private education loan disclosures made in compliance with § 226.47.
(Note #37) The disclosures may include an acknowledgment of receipt, the date of the transaction, and the consumer's name, address, and account number.
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§ 226.19 Certain mortgage and variable-rate transactions.
(a) Mortgage transactions subject to RESPA--(1)(i) Time of disclosures. In a mortgage transaction subject to the Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act (12 U.S.C. 2601 et seq.) that is secured by the consumer's dwelling, other than a home equity line of credit subject to § 226.5b or mortgage transaction subject to paragraph (a)(5) of this section, the creditor shall make good faith estimates of the disclosures required by § 226.18 and shall deliver or place them in the mail not later than the third business day after the creditor receives the consumer's written application.
(ii) Imposition of fees. Except as provided in paragraph (a)(1)(iii) of this section, neither a creditor nor any other person may impose a fee on a consumer in connection with the consumer's application for a mortgage transaction subject to paragraph (a)(1)(i) of this section before the consumer has received the disclosures required by paragraph (a)(1)(i) of this section. If the disclosures are mailed to the consumer, the consumer is considered to have received them three business days after they are mailed.
10dIf the disclosures and brochure are mailed to the consumer, the consumer is considered to have received them three business days after they are mailed
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The FDIC provides sample forms for each disclosure it requires. Multiple sample forms are illustrated, and you may note that the RTC does not include any acknowledgment of receipt (although the lender MAY choose to include one). Of the several sample TIL forms, only one includes an acknowledgment (again, this is at lender's discretion but is not required).
Samples of both the TIL disclosure and the RTC disclosure are in this section of the TILA (you'll need to scroll down):
http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/6500-1950.html#fdic6500appendixhtopart226
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Reply by Jean Henke on 3/1/12 6:07pm
Msg #413670
Must be why all my ss's are including another directions page to NOT provide borrowers with electronic format, must print a hard copy.
Hmmm I think TILA/RESPA laws might have something to say about this.
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Reply by janCA on 3/1/12 6:55pm
Msg #413681
I'm starting to get packages again, like I did 4-5 yrs ago that only have 1 copy of the NOTC in the original package. This really torks me. They know there are two borrowers and that there should be at least 5 copies of this document within the loan package and yet they're only sending 1 document each. No 2 copies for each borrower, only that which is in their copy package.
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Reply by jnew on 3/1/12 6:56pm
Msg #413682
I dont' believe one would have to throw the baby out with the bath water on this. CTIC or any other TC could separately direct the notary to provide paper copies of the rescission and the TIL and keep this policy, which I believe to be quite sane.
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Reply by Jean Henke on 3/1/12 7:01pm
Msg #413683
I vote for that. Covers the basis and saves some trees. Lots of trees!
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Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/1/12 9:37pm
Msg #413702
Old habits die hard, apparently
Upon further research, I was told that that an entire district of Chicago Title companies in CA has now adopted the e-mail/CD policy re borrowers' copies. Chicago Title is owned by Fidelity Title, the largest TC in America (I believe) so either they all have been smoking too much of the hippie weed over there or they actually know what they're doing and their vast legal department has passed on this. Still, some of us mere notaries are citing chapter and verse that CT can't do this and they're going to be in trouble and are in violation and on and on. Whatever. Sigh.
If you want to still print a second copy cos you just can't help yourself, go ahead. They're not prohibiting it. As for me, I print the settlement statement/HUD, note, first payment letter, escrow acct (if any), IAF and their copies of the RTC. If a payoff statement is in there, I'd print that too. What else would a borrower ever want, anyway?
BTW Jean, back in the old days when I did Citibank HELOCS by the bushel, each loan package had three, count 'em 3!, deeds of trust, each of which had to be signed.
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