Posted by MichaelB/IL on 3/12/12 12:08pm
Msg #414581

What's in a name?

I am curious on this, as my notary handbook is very general and does not address this. If an ID states individual as John Doe, but docs/signature line states John James Doe, can I list on the acknowledgement that John James Doe appeared before me. I've always put what was on the ID, but a title company has said this is an error on the acknowledgment and wants me to list the full name. I can't really certify that John James Doe appeared before me, since the ID does not list this name.

I don't understand why people don't list their full names on any ID they have and then when applying for credit use this all the time.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/12/12 12:11pm
Msg #414582

>>>If an ID states individual as John Doe, but docs/signature line states John James Doe, can I list on the acknowledgement that John James Doe appeared before me<<<

Yes. The name in your certificate should match the name that is in the document, even if that name doesn't exactly match the ID. The important thing is that you are satisfied that the person appearing before you is the person named in the document. It doesn't matter what is on the ID. If you have no reason to believe that the person is attempting to defraud you, minor discrepancies in the name do not matter.

Reply by Lee/AR on 3/12/12 12:17pm
Msg #414584

The answer varies by state. In AR, I'm with FlaNotary2 PROVIDED signer can show me something/S official (birth cert. or ???) that has the James included. As to why people do that--who knows--some are proactive and insist that whole name be included; others just accept 'whatever'---a lot like some notaries just accept whatever fee is offered and don't give a thought to the ramifications of doing so.

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/12/12 12:26pm
Msg #414586

Agreed. It's always better to take the extra steps, and be properly compensated for your due diligence and professionalism. Thanks Lee!

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/12/12 1:35pm
Msg #414623

I am wriggling like a pig in new mud. Well, not really, but I agree.



** It doesn't matter what is on the ID. If you have no reason to believe that the person is attempting to defraud you, minor discrepancies in the name do not matter.**(Robert)

&

**The answer varies by state. In AR, I'm with FlaNotary2 PROVIDED signer can show me something/S official (birth cert. or ???) that has the James included. As to why people do that--who knows--some are proactive and insist that whole name be included; others just accept 'whatever'---a lot like some notaries just accept whatever fee is offered and don't give a thought to the ramifications of doing so.** (Lee)

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/12/12 12:17pm
Msg #414585

Thanks for the input. I was not 100% sure.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/12/12 12:28pm
Msg #414587

In those situations, I always ask for the borrower to show me additional ID that supports all names shown on the docs.

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/12/12 12:31pm
Msg #414588

Do you do this as supporting documentation for your own due diligence, or for the ID that is copied and sent to title?

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/12/12 12:32pm
Msg #414589

What right to we have to ask for additional documents?

I would not be pulling out my birth certificate for a notary... I think we need to stop overthinking this aspect of the notarization. If they have proper ID, the names essentially match, the photo matches the face of the person in front of you, approximate age matches, etc., there is no reason to make some huge fuss over a person's middle name.

Did you think that maybe the person took a confirmation name as a teenager? It wouldn't be on their birth certificate but under common law if they use it as a middle name it IS their middle name - regardless of what it says on their driver license.

Reply by Buddy Young on 3/12/12 12:42pm
Msg #414591

Re: What right to we have to ask for additional documents?

Robert is correct again.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 3/12/12 3:54pm
Msg #414648

"Robert is correct again."

Robert is NOT correct again, as far as CA goes.

CA law specifically gives us the right to ask for multiple IDs anytime we feel justified asking for them. Of course, we are limited to what IDs we can use ... and birth/marriage certificates are not among those ....

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/12/12 12:49pm
Msg #414592

I disagree..

How about the possibility of

Father: John Joseph Doe
Son: John James Doe

John Doe stands in front of you with John Doe on ID-

I think the cert must reflect the name of the person standing in front of you as on ID, not the name on the docs. Many times the names on the docs are wrong through oversight or scrivener's errors.

And don't forget...our FL manual covers name discrepancies - "John Doe who represented to me that he took title as John James Doe, and provided XXX in the name of John Doe as identification." So, IMO, in FL we have to use the name on the ID in our certs because that's who appeared in front of us.

JMHO

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/12/12 1:10pm
Msg #414602

Re: I disagree..

>>>I think the cert must reflect the name of the person standing in front of you as on ID, not the name on the docs<<<

What do you base this assertion on? Common sense tells me that the name on the acknowledgment should match what is in the document. If the document says "John Joseph Doe", then it is "John Joseph Doe" who is acknowledging the document.

§ 695.09, Florida Statutes: "No acknowledgment or proof shall be taken [...] by any officer [...] unless the officer knows, or has satisfactory proof, that the person making the acknowledgment is the individual **DESCRIBED IN**, and who executed, such instrument [...]" (emphasis supplied).

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/12/12 1:12pm
Msg #414606

And with a person in front of you showing ID

showing only John Doe, you have absolutely NO proof that the person in front of you is John Joseph Doe - it could be his son, John James Doe, standing in front of you...

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/12/12 1:17pm
Msg #414613

But that is up to the notary to decide.

§ 117.05(5)(b), Florida Statutes: "For the purposes of this subsection, “satisfactory evidence” means the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person whose signature is to be notarized is not the person he or she claims to be [...]"

This means that if there is NOTHING which leads you to believe that John Doe and John Joseph Doe are not the same person, the evidence is satisfactory.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/12/12 1:24pm
Msg #414617

Robert...this section is about proof of identity

not about what name goes in the cert.

And yes the person proved he's John Doe - he did not prove he's John <<whatever>> Doe - so absent that the name "John Doe" goes in the cert WITH Florida wording ...I don't care what name is in the docs. If Florida didn't provide for this then, honestly, I'm not sure I'd notarize...because John <<whatever>> Doe does not necessarily equal John Doe....especially when I'm staring at ID stating John Doe.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it...

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/12/12 12:55pm
Msg #414593

Re: What right to we have to ask for additional documents?

If they want me to notarize their signature on the document, and the document lists their name as John Alan Doe but their ID has only John Doe, then yes I am going to ask to see additional ID. I don't personally know these people - I have no idea what their middle name is or isn't.

Reply by Buddy Young on 3/12/12 11:51pm
Msg #414690

Re: What right to we have to ask for additional documents?

OK. What if you pull out the name/signature affidavit and all the names in question are listed on the affidavit. They swear or affirm that the affidavit is correct. Is that enough evidence to proceed.

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/13/12 2:50am
Msg #414706

Re: What right to we have to ask for additional documents?

I think that if the signature line states John James Doe, their ID lists as John Doe, and I've certified that the individual appearing before me is indeed John Doe that the name affidavit listing that John Doe and John James Doe are the same person should be sufficient for the title company. Just my opinion and I may be wrong. The greatest breadth of my experience is on the lender side.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/13/12 7:04am
Msg #414711

Name Affidavit = proof of ID?????

Buddy & Michael, if you as notaries public are using the name affidavit to establish identity for notarial purposes, I feel you need to re-evaluate what you are doing. The Name Affivadit is NOT proof of identity - it is a document that lenders generate and use to tie several names together for their borrower. It may be fine for the lender's purposes, but it is NOT government issued identification - it is a sworn statement by a person that he/she is associated with those names. I would NEVER use the Name Affidavit as proof of ID. If you do that, you might as well accept their Costco membership card as proof of ID.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/13/12 7:07am
Msg #414712

Ooops - meant to post this under Buddy's & Michael's posts n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 3/12/12 1:12pm
Msg #414608

Disagree, I have the right to ask for supplemental evidence

Very common situation (as an example) - recently married women named on loan docs with married name, title docs with maiden name.

If she can provide me with evidence tying those two names to the same person, and I have no reason to doubt her identity, I can carry on (legally, per SOS legal dept).

She, of course, has the right to decline to show me anything at all - and I then have the right to refuse notarization.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 3/12/12 1:50pm
Msg #414629

Re: Disagree, I have the right to ask for supplemental evidence

Renee, I have done the same as you in that situation, and I am in complete agreement with your entire post.

Reply by MichiganAl on 3/12/12 11:15pm
Msg #414688

Not surprisingly, I agree with Renee

Nothing prohibits me from asking for supplementary evidence. And if that supplementary evidence allows me to me to accept the primary ID as satisfactory, then of course I'll do it.

Reply by Buddy Young on 3/12/12 12:40pm
Msg #414590

Robert is correct!!!!
The acknowledgement has to list the name as it appears on the documents, not the way it's listed on the ID. In California anyway.

If you list the name differently on the ack. than is listed in the docs, they will come back and you will have to resign. Just my opinion. not legal advise.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 3/12/12 1:08pm
Msg #414601

not in IL... n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/12/12 1:11pm
Msg #414604

Yes, in IL... and every other state in the union n/m

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 3/12/12 1:14pm
Msg #414610

Roberto, you're wrong...get over it... n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/12/12 1:17pm
Msg #414614

Carry, YOU'RE wrong, get over it n/m

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 3/12/12 1:50pm
Msg #414630

...following your own law I see again Robert... n/m

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 3/12/12 1:04pm
Msg #414597

Re: What's in a name? - only PART of the identity

Forgive me, Michael, for seemingly calling you out here, but I want to point something out...

You said "I can't really certify that John James Doe appeared before me, since the ID does not list this name."

I contend that you ALREADY certified (effectively & mentally) that "John James Doe" appeared before you, when you decided to notarize his signature on the document naming him as such. By refusing to cite his name as it appeared on/in the document and instead using whatever is on his ID, I think you're attempting an end-run around the very act of notarizing.

You are either satisfied he is whom he presents himself to be, or you're not.

Also, in the case of a document being recorded - such as a Mtg or DOT or Deed - the recorder requires the name on the 'front' or in the body of the document, the prepared signature line and the notarial cert to match.

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/12/12 1:07pm
Msg #414599

Re: What's in a name? - only PART of the identity

I see your point, Renee. Thanks.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/12/12 3:07pm
Msg #414642

Agree, Renee'

*You are either satisfied he is whom he presents himself to be, or you're not.*

It cannot be both ways.

If a person presents ID and holds him/herself out to be the one who is to sign loan documents there can only be one of two outcomes.

1-The person IS the correct person name in the document. I complete the certificate based on the name stated in the document.

2-The person is attempting to commit mortgage fraud. I do not notarize; I contact the authorities.

Here, the clerks, underwriting, and title examiners are not interested in seeing the name on the ID, they want to know that the person who is named in the document signed the document. It will be kicked back if the name is not the same on the cert as in the document.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/12/12 3:18pm
Msg #414644

Re: Agree, Renee' Third possibility

A third possibility is the person who appears has every right to sign the document, but is not personally known to the notary, cannot provide (a) satisfactory credible witness(s), and lacks satisfactory ID. Contacting the authorities seems reasonable if the person seems to have fake ID, but I'm not so sure about a simple lack of ID.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/12/12 5:02pm
Msg #414655

Don't agree VT

If they have valid ID and present it to me, and if I decide that no evidence before me causes me to disbelieve them, and furthermore, if I believe that an unprejudiced and reasonable person would not have reason to disbelieve them, I notarize.

Am I going to hang up a loan over John James Doe vs. John Doe? Not likely. If I do, it's because I sincerely think there is a crime being committed. I don't need to see a perfect match.

If a perfect match will do the job then we can soon be replaced by machines. The toll ways can read a license plate and send you a fine or a bill if you don't have a tag that it can scan. Hopefully, common sense and due diligence will be necessary for a few years longer.

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/13/12 2:58am
Msg #414707

Re: Don't agree VT

I agree that if there is no reason to disbelieve them that the notarization should continue, I just think that the part of our acknowledgement stating I certify that John Doe appeared before me should be sufficient. Why should it be necessary for me to state John James Doe if the ID does not state this.

In the case of this signing I had no reason to suspect fraud.

I agree that the point of a PERSON completing the acknowledgement is that we can make judgment calls. But, if my acknowledgment states the extra name added, then it makes the assumption that the ID I verified contained this. And, I just don't think the statutes and handbooks are clear enough on this. At least for Illinois, they don't give concrete examples.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/13/12 6:33am
Msg #414708

Every person has to decide how

he or she will handle situations.

To me, it seems that leaving the certificate to state what is on the ID in property/loan situations puts the burden of deciding whether or not the ID was adequate to a clerk at the courthouse and he/she never met the signer. It also seems like that leaves question of a clear title. (But, that's just me!)

In my experience, less than half of borrowers have documentation of all of their names.

When I acquired my first property. I took title in Brenda Middle Maiden Last. The only document that had my middle name on it was a birth certificate. When I sold that property I had a different last name.

The notary at the title company knew that I had come through quite a process to get to where I was at the table. She had Brenda and Maiden on which to rely--that was all that matched between my DL and the documents. It was not questioned. I think that living through those experiences and having been through multiple transactions of my own gives, plus my work experience, makes me recognize that sometimes the stars will not line up.

Had I been refused notarization after presenting valid ID of who I was, I would have felt that I was being accused of fraud for no good reason and I would have challenged the title company notary on that. The signer is supposed to provide evidence of who they are and they acknowledge that they are signing for genuine purposes.

Have I ever refused a notarization? Yes!! There were too many things wrong with the IDs and situations.

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/13/12 12:06pm
Msg #414738

Re: Every person has to decide how

That's the thing. I did not refuse notarization, and in a similar situation I would not. I have no reason to suspect fraud.

Also, the clerk of the court/recorders office is not looking at an ID. There is no burden on them to decide if the ID is valid. That is our job.

And clear title; the name affidavit works for them. The affidavit is not our ID verification. It is an affidavit from the individual stating legally that yes I am this person.

But, like I said, if I put that I certify First Middle Last name appeared before me, and the ID just has First Last name, then it gives the impression that the ID I verified stated such.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 3/12/12 1:06pm
Msg #414598

Re: What's in a name...EVERYTHING...more is good, not less..

Always use the name that is on their proof of identification for your notarial certs...

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/12/12 1:11pm
Msg #414603

WHAT statute do you base this on? n/m

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 3/12/12 1:08pm
Msg #414600

Wow...surprised at the wiiiiide differences of opinion here. n/m

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/12/12 1:12pm
Msg #414609

Re: Wow...surprised at the wiiiiide differences of opinion here.

Actually, I am not. I figured I had opened a can of worms. Notary handbooks are not clear on this, and consumers don't pay attention to what they put on their IDs and how they apply for credit. Unfortunately, I've seen this vary greatly, so I figured this topic would have a lot of contention.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 3/12/12 1:19pm
Msg #414616

of course consumers know what they put on their ID's!...geez

you make it seem as if EVERYONE's an idiot Michael.

Strictly speaking for IL, what's put on our state's ID and DL is a result of various documentation that is given to the IL SOS...you really ought to check out the IL SOS website and read up on our NEW ID laws! On their site, they also have a list of all the required documents needed to obtain an actual ID. Its long, and most annoying.

As far as for applying for credit, consumers MUST use the name on their ID or DL as this is proof of who they are? Why is this do difficult?

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/12/12 1:25pm
Msg #414618

Re: of course consumers know what they put on their ID's!...geez

Excuse me, but I am not making it seem that everyone is an idiot. If it seems this way to you, it is not my intention. It is not idiocy to be uninformed. Lack of information is just that, and I would contend that a fair majority of everyday consumers don't know this. If all consumers used the name that is typed exactly on their current ID, then this topic would be a moot point.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 3/12/12 1:39pm
Msg #414625

in IL, one's legal name is on the ID cards...

how this individual got away with NOT putting their legal name on their ID is interesting though...if this is or was the case...but according to IL statute with regard to obtaining a identification document:

<<Each original application shall be completed by the applicant in full and shall set forth the legal name, residence address and zip code, social security number, birth date, sex and a brief description of the applicant>> 15 ILCS 335/5

Now if an individual has legally changed their name, they're supposed to obtain a new bc, ss#, then new identification documents.

I just don't see how a title company would NOT accept a notarial cert if the individuals LEGAL name is on it, as it appears on their identification documents submitted to the notary...ridiculous.

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/12/12 1:45pm
Msg #414627

Re: in IL, one's legal name is on the ID cards...

I agree with you. There are a lot of ridiculous goings on. You can check out my topic discussion just started on signatures.

Thanks for your input!

Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/12/12 1:49pm
Msg #414628

Constructive notice

Between the time a person purchase a property and they time they sell it, the way their name appears on identification documents can change. Maybe a woman bought the property using a driver's license from a state that treats the maiden name like a middle name, whether the driver likes it or not. Now the lady has a driver's license with her real middle name. She has no reason to change her name in court; her name didn't change. But the name she took title as must appear in the deed when she sells it, otherwise a person doing a title search might not find the deed where she sells the property. Thus, the world at large might not be considered to have "constructive notice" that she sold the property. That's bad.

Various states have various ways to overcome the problem, but it seems this is often overlooked until the last minute, or overlooked completely.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 3/12/12 1:12pm
Msg #414607

...also, depends on which state your doing the closing for..

as you can see, many have different rules, but I always stay with my "home" rule...be curious to know the name of the title company that told you this misinformation...

Reply by MichaelB/IL on 3/12/12 1:16pm
Msg #414612

Re: ...also, depends on which state your doing the closing for..

Not sure that matters. From a long history of managing I've learned that a company is only as good as the person you are speaking to. So all things being equal, any title company (or any company for that matter) can give you two different answers, depending on who you talk to.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/12/12 1:26pm
Msg #414619

My law has no law (that I can find) saying exactly what a notary should be looking for when identifying a signer. The new Uniform Law on Notarial Acts isn't a law, but it is a consensus of a group of lawyers and other individuals about what the law ought to be. It says, in section 5a,

"A notarial officer who takes an acknowledgement of a record shall determine, from
personal knowledge or satisfactory evidence of the identity of the individual, that the individual
appearing before the officer and making the acknowledgment has the identity claimed and that
the signature on the record is the signature of the individual."

So I would say that if the signer signs, he is claiming ALL the names in the instrument (there could be one near the top of the instrument, one printed under the signature line, and yet another in the handwritten signature). I want to be satisfied the signer is entitled to use all the variations of the name. I'm willing to look at more than one ID to confirm this, and I'm willing to accept common nicknames without written proof (for example, "Bill" for "William"). If the signer, or the signer's lawyer, thinks it's important to use William Joe Jones' middle name even though it isn't on his driver's license, then it must be important enough for me to check it.

If there is verbiage such as "Martha Jones who took title as Martha Allen" I would interpret to mean that Martha Jones is her present name, and I don't need to verify that she used to be known as Martha Allen.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/12/12 1:39pm
Msg #414624

URL for RULNA

A description of the Revised Uniform Law on Notarial Acts may be found at

http://www.nccusl.org/ActSummary.aspx?title=Revised%20Uniform%20Law%20on%20Notarial%20Acts

Again, it isn't a law unless and until a particular state decides to pass it, and in previous
uniform laws about notarization didn't get passed by too many states.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 3/12/12 2:32pm
Msg #414638

In Oregon, from the Handbook:

Identification Documents—the following types of identification may be used to positively identify a client, if they are current, i.e. not expired.

A current drivers’ license or current identity card issued by any state.
A current United States passport or a current officially recognized passport of a foreign country.
A United States passport means a U.S. passport and a U.S. passport card issued by the U.S.
Department of State.
A current United States military identification card.
A current identity card issued by a federally recognized Indian tribe.

Produces at least one current document issued by the federal government or a state, county,
municipal or other local government and containing the person’s photograph, signature and physical description.

If a person is confined in a correctional facility and needs to have documents notarized, identification used to identify the person incarcerated shall be that which is used in the facility to positively identify through examination or comparison of official government documents or records.

The Oregon DMV has made a change in their procedure when issuing renewed and replacement drivers’ licenses and identification cards. The old card will be invalidated with a hole punched in the name and address area and returned to the person, rather than requiring that the card be surrendered and destroyed by the DMV. The old drivers’ license or ID card with a hole punched in it has been made invalid, and therefore cannot be used as identification by itself. For identification purposes when notarizing documents, notaries can continue to use the temporary paper drivers’ license and ID cards issued by the DMV, as long as they are current.

Identification Document NOT Acceptable for ID—The following type of identification may not be used for identification purposes:

Matricular Consular ID:

Several Latin American countries, particularly Mexico, are allowing their consulates to issue matricular consular ID to their citizens in the United States, or issue the matricular consular ID to those who come to the U.S. Oregon does not recognize matricular consular ID. We’ve been advised by our Deputy Attorney General that ORS 194.515 (8) and (9) sets out an exclusive list of “Identification Documents” a notary may rely on in verifying the identity of a person. That list does not include matricular consular ID.

The Sec of State's office just confirmed that because the law is silent as to the "names" issue, if the ID shows John Doe, and the doc shows John James Doe, and Mr Doe's signature on the ID is John Doe, the signer can add "aka John James Doe," but must -sign- ID signature.

But, that's Oregon.

It used to be the norm to see a Signature/Name Affidavit that covered all names/combos - and that solved the problem - don't know if it's still SOP for doc generators.

Bottom line: a lack/addition of a middle name/initial cannot be a barrier to the daily processes of conducting one's business. Using common sense, and following one's state laws, wins the day.