Posted by Patrick Notary Service on 3/23/12 1:12pm
Msg #415821

Witnessess on POA/Compliance

As a SA I frequently see a doc titled "Power of Attorney and Compliance Agreement" I recenly lost a signing because the borrower was told by the lender he did not need witnessess as the POA/Compliance "was not really a POA" and therefore did not require the two witnessess. Florida Statue 709.08 states states that a Durable Power of Attorney must have two witnessess. Anybody got the down and dirty on this ???

Reply by MW/VA on 3/23/12 1:24pm
Msg #415824

The documents I see are usually "Limited Power or Attorney

and Compliance Agreement". It is not nearly the same thing as a Durable Power of Attorney.
Always check with your hiring party as to what does/does not require witness signatures.
There are several highly-experienced FL notaries on this forum that should be able to help you.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/23/12 1:34pm
Msg #415826

Lender was wrong. If the document is a POA, within the

meaning of the statute, two witnesses are required.

§ 709.2102(7), Florida Statutes, defines a "power of attorney" as "a writing that grants authority to an agent to act in the place of the principal, whether or not the term is used in that writing". If the document you were given meets this description, it "must be signed by the principal and by two subscribing witnesses and be acknowledged by the principal before a notary public" (§ 709.2105(2)).

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 3/23/12 2:42pm
Msg #415847

Robert, you don't work as an NSA so you wouldn't know

about the specific form that OP is referring to. It's a very limited power of attorney, NOT the same as a durable!

This form is usually included in almost all closing packages, where the BO is giving a very "limited" poa to title usually no more than 90 days (BO can actually insert the amount of days on the form itself), just in case there are any minor changes that need to be made to certain loan documents.

Reply by NJDiva on 3/23/12 3:07pm
Msg #415850

Not that it means anything until it happens, but

has anyone ever been investigated in FL for this document?

Reply by jba/fl on 3/23/12 7:46pm
Msg #415873

What document? n/m

Reply by desktopfull on 3/23/12 3:27pm
Msg #415851

Re: Robert, you don't work as an NSA so you wouldn't know

"This form is usually included in almost all closing packages, where the BO is giving a very "limited" poa to title usually no more than 90 days (BO can actually insert the amount of days on the form itself), just in case there are any minor changes that need to be made to certain loan documents."

Lately, the ones that I am reading are for the entire length of the loan. One of the borrower's brought it to my attention and called the lender and told them flat out they wouldn't sign that doc. and would take the matter to his attorney. The lender called back and waiver the borrower signing the form.

Reply by NJDiva on 3/23/12 3:30pm
Msg #415852

It clearly states that the terms, loan amount and interest

rate cannot be revised or changed, doesn't it?

Reply by desktopfull on 3/23/12 3:39pm
Msg #415853

Re: It clearly states that the terms, loan amount and interest

It was the replacing or changing for 30 years that the borrower objected to, it was the lender's way around replacing lost docs. Do you remember the cases in FL where the law firms were in trouble for making up docs to file foreclosures, they couldn't find the assignments.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 3/23/12 8:47pm
Msg #415877

Now THAT POA is just nuts to sign, and I don't blame the BO

to sign...but the ones I've seen are very scaled down, and very specific. 30 years, that's just ridiculous...

Reply by tony1994CT on 3/23/12 9:44pm
Msg #415891

Re: Now THAT POA is just nuts to sign, and I don't blame the BO

He is right it now says the POA is for the lenght of the loan

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/23/12 3:52pm
Msg #415854

A limited POA is still a POA, and in Florida it must be

Witnessed.

Again, please read my first post.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 3/23/12 10:16pm
Msg #415898

Durable POA vs. other POAs

A normal POA becomes ineffective when a person becomes mentally incompetent. A durable POA is intended to appoint someone to act for the principal in the event the principal becomes injured or ill to the point of being mentally incompetent, and needs someone to take care of his/her affairs. I don't know if the witness requirements between the two are different in Florida, or anywhere else.

The degree of authority given to the attorney-in-fact is a different issue from whether the POA ends on the incompetence of the principal.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/24/12 7:21am
Msg #415910

All POAs in Florida must be witnessed, durable or not n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 3/26/12 11:50am
Msg #416056

And YOU are not a Florida notary law so you wouldn't know

about the Florida Power of Attorney Act.

Reply by BrendaTx on 3/23/12 11:28pm
Msg #415904

Patrick - I'm getting very sleepy so maybe I am missing

something. Please forgive me if I am misreading.

Is it within the notary's purview to be concerned with the document's legal requirements?

If there is a signature by the signer and an appropriately worded certificate, it would seem that you have no problems and may proceed without concerning yourself with the law except for notary law.