Posted by Marian_in_CA on 5/26/12 2:00pm
Msg #421948

Another example of how signing services are almost useless

Yesterday I got several calls from several different SS's for a signing at 7:30pm in my town. I was booked up and couldn't take it. The ones that were calling were ones that all have a history of low fees and late payments, so I wasn't particularly upset about it. One of them said that there was another guy in town that would do it but he was too expansive. That shocked me... I wasn't aware that there was another mobile NSA right in town taking work. She asked me what my fee would be if I were available, and I told her my minimum... and she said, "Wow, you're even more expensive than he is, double even! How do you get any work?" Double??? If my fee for right in town is double, then this guy is working for less than $70-80. (sigh)

Anyway.... let's answer her question...

I finish up for the day at 8:30pm. I'm not feeling too great (I recently injured my neck) and took my pain meds, got in my PJs and was about to get in to bed right before 9pm. My cell phone rang, but it went to voice mail because I was brushing my teeth. I checked, thinking it was a friend or family member.... nope. It was a frantic call direct from a Title company. They had a signing that had to be done by midnight else the borrowers would incur some hefty penalties.

Turns out the guy that originally took the job couldn't open the file through the SS's secure system. He got frustrated and canceled, turned it back at the last minute.

Now, I'd just take some hefty meds... and I thought, "No way... I'm not doing it. I'm going to bed!" But, then I figured...wait, this is a TC calling me directly in desperate need of help. There's no way they'll find another notary to take this and be able to get it done by midnight (Friday, on a holiday weekend) -- because I'm really one of the only ones for 45+ minutes in any direction...and the borrowers were about 10 minutes away. Oh, what the heck...

SO, I'm candid with the scheduler, let her know my dilemma and ask for about 2 hours so that the effects of my medication will wear off. It's usually not how I operate all... but I really felt bad, and I'm sure the meds were talking, too. She assured me that they were okay with that and understood.

I quote them my regular rate, including my emergency/late night fee, and they agree, no questions asked. NO fax backs, no hand holding... just print and go. I love those jobs! The TC and the borrowers were awesome and were very understanding... but more than that, thrilled it got done in time.

As it turns out, the wife said that when she learned who was originally coming to handle the file, she wasn't happy. She told me who it was, and I understood! I don't want to get in to more details... but she was, in a way, really happy that he blew them off.

So in the end, I was able to take a shower and wake up enough to get it done and I've managed to have one of the highest paid loan signings I've had in about a year because it came direct from the TC -- and you darn well better believe it's going back to them picture perfect. And, I'm pretty darn sure that I'm going to end up with a check that is probably 3 times what the other notary would have been paid by the signing service - who now gets nada.

I know not all SSs are bad... but let's face it, as notaries, we'd be so much better off if the TCs would just come to us directly, to the ones they can pay top dollar and trust it will get done right. The SSs are taking HUGE chunks of the fee for doing very little of the work.

Reply by HisHughness on 5/26/12 2:26pm
Msg #421954

Sorry, Marian, you and I are going to disagree

Signing services are an integral part of our industry, and I suspect overall have contributed to the growth we have seen in the use of signing agents.

There are many parallels in other areas of business. Many, perhaps even most, businesses prefer to focus their efforts and resources on their core expertise; they don't want to have to deal with real estate. So they lease real estate, rather than owning it. Manufacturers prefer to manufacture; they generally do not want to deal with the hassles of customer development, mass-market marketing, distribution and sales, so they sale to wholesalers, who in turn sell to retailers. And so it goes, in industry after industry.

Title companies and lenders generally want to title and lend. The many and varied hassles of lining up notaries for closings they would prefer to leave to someone else. I strongly suspect that the availability of signing services to track down guys like us is the major reason for the rapid expansion of the use of remote closers. And the rapid expansion of the use of remote closers has in turn permitted title companies to handle larger volumes of loans.

So, overall, I am grateful for the existence of signing services. They have their place, and I think a vital one. That there are some -- many? -- which have a stench about them doesn't mean that the existence of signing services is a negative. The existence of unworthy signing services is the result of many factors, not the least of which is businesses that keep churning out wanna-be NSAs.

For several years, I published a magazine in Austin that served the homebuilding and architectural community. Every month I featured a homebuilder on the cover. When I first stated publishing the magazine and talked to people about prospective cover subjects, uniformly -- no exceptions -- I was told to avoid a particular homebuilder. He was just a bad egg, and he had found his niche in the Austin homebuilding market as a bad egg, but that did not render all homebuilders bad eggs. So it is with signing services. Some -- many? -- have found their niche as bad eggs, but others serve a useful, even vital purpose.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/26/12 2:35pm
Msg #421957

Re: Sorry, Marian, you and I are going to disagree

Oh, no, I agree Hugh... the *good* ones (the few left) provide a great service. My point is that there are just too many that are plain useless and are actually causing more trouble than anything else. And the ones that all called me yesterday for this job were none of the good. Hey, in the end.. great for me... I still got the job and a nice fee to go with it... but it wouldn't have happened had they hired a competent SS to begin with.

Trust me, I have my favorites with signing services... and if they call me, I will work things out to work for them, just as I would with a call direct from Title.

Reply by Les_CO on 5/26/12 2:59pm
Msg #421959

Re: Sorry, Marian, you and I are going to disagree

If we did not have 10,000 inexperienced, no nothing, part time, I do this for extra money while my husband brings home a paycheck, hobbyist NSA wannabe's out there (thank you NNA) undercutting our legitimate fees for professional work we would not have the problem of 1000 new startup easy money no-nothing SS and the greedy "lets save a buck" and keep the difference (secrete profit) Title Company's in this business now things would be different also. Let’s actually see the picture as it is and not place the blame elsewhere. It’s OUR fault. I can’t blame a SS for giving a signing to a notary in my area that charges $90, to do what I charge $125 for. Especially if his last 25 signings have been “no error” (and yes, they the SS do know and track these things, especially those that use the coffee sites data base. JMO

Reply by Les_CO on 5/26/12 3:39pm
Msg #421961

Re: Sorry, Marian, you and I are going to disagree

Again much as it pains me I have to agree with Hugh. The problem with the “bad eggs,” and there are some are some SS that make Hong Kong 100 year old eggs look like they’re just laid stand up yoke fresh, is that there are masses of newly hatched notaries courtesy of you know who (I won’t say NN* out of courtesy to Hugh) that don’t have a clue, don’t know how to market, where to look, or who to and who to not work for. Lambs to the slaughter. So these deadbeats, and lowballers stay in (no regulations/recourse) business.
It doesn’t help that the “good guy’ SS have gradually succumbed to the pressure, and competition, of a lowering price environment, and that some of us old hands are now reluctantly also doing likewise.
Still if no notary would take a low fee, or work for a deadbeats would be gone, and the SS /Title Co’s would pay more.
In the end it’s our fault not theirs. JMO

Reply by RonnieB/NC on 5/27/12 10:38pm
Msg #422038

Re: Sorry, Marian, you and I are going to disagree

I am listening to and learning from all you seasoned NSA. In November, of last year I made a copy
of all the signing services from Notary Rotary and took it around with me. I studied it like my second
bible. Learned who has bad ratings, three stars, who to answer ,and who not to. I only sign with
with four and five stars, some three and a half stars companies. I work for one two star company
for one reason. She is always desperate when she calls and needs a last minute. I get paid within thirty days $xxx.

There are some elite companies that will send your check in a week, then some every 15th and 30th. Some pays ACH or paypal. After Paul Gambs stoled my money, I stop working for these
low life greedy scum who will steel from you if you give them a chance.

Reply by RonnieB/NC on 5/27/12 10:40pm
Msg #422039

Re: Sorry, Marian, you and I are going to disagree

Sorry that word was steal.

Reply by jba/fl on 5/27/12 10:45pm
Msg #422040

Ronnie - I don't recall seeing you here before, welcome.

I took a peek at your profile, but there is nothing there. That is your space to advertise yourself, to let everyone know how great you are.

OK, I'm stymied so I'll just spit it out: get on that and write about yourself. If you have caught on to some of the low lifes around, you must have experience to be touted.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 5/28/12 1:28pm
Msg #422055

Les , reREAD what you posted above:

It doesn’t help that the “good guy’ SS have gradually succumbed to the pressure, and competition, of a lowering price environment, and that some of us old hands are now reluctantly also doing likewise.
"Still if no notary would take a low fee, or work for a deadbeats would be gone, and the SS /Title Co’s would pay more.
In the end it’s our fault not theirs. JMO"
YOU said it! Please stand strong and think about what you are doing! Do you do realize that you are caving and helping to create the low fees!!
You say some of us old hands are now reluctantly doing likewise! Yikes!!! Speak for yourself, I personally choose to not go down that road, as there is no way back up.
Find ways to diversify your income stream(s) instead of caving to lower fees. I have lost (my decision NOT to accept the lower fees now offered by companies that used to pay more) some good SS business, but I cannot lower my fees and justify it in any way, shape or form. How can I? My costs have risen every year that I have been in business, as I am sure your has, can you really afford to lower your fees?

Reply by Susan Fischer on 5/28/12 8:03pm
Msg #422073

There was a commercial; Neighborhood Barber Shop owner of

40 years sees a BrandNewShop with a huge sign: "$6.00 Haircutz" open up across the street. Next day old man Barber puts up a little sign: "I fix $6 haircuts."

Since beginning in 2003, I raised my rates incrementally over time. My budget demanded it. Those who understood business adjusted, and I worked hard to maintain my financial plan.

If you settle for less, you get less, I guess.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/28/12 9:06pm
Msg #422076

Two great posts! Thanks, Sheila and Susan!! n/m

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/28/12 10:15pm
Msg #422081

Like. n/m

Reply by Les_CO on 5/30/12 9:27am
Msg #422174

Re:Sheila

Let me clarify…when I started I mostly worked for one title company, my standard fee was $150. I was noted on the HUD. They cut my check when the loan disbursed. I then slowly started to advertise, and do some work for others. Within a couple of years the climate changed, the title company I did most of my work for was no more, and most of my calls balked at the $150 fee. I then lowered my fee to $125. My business doubled, and I still made a profit. My standard fee is still $125, but I have been known for my good repeat business customers under certain conditions to charge $110. I won’t do a signing for practice, at a breakeven point, or for a loss. I don’t need the practice, and I have many other more fun ways to lose money. JMO

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/26/12 2:30pm
Msg #421955

Anyway, I meant to add.... the reason I'm getting work is because I end up having to clean up/pick up after the messes left by the lowballers and other notaries out there who take those fees or who just plain don't understand the technology. It's why I do not take the cheap fees. I just don't. I'm okay if others do, that's their thing... but it seems I'm building my work around cleaning up their messes. I find that sad.

BY hiring these people, the SSs themselves are even losing money. By turning the job back, the SS the TC used isn't going to be compensated for the work that they did finding that other notary. Even *they* would be better off hiring competent notaries and paying them a decent fee rather than keeping a large percentage (sometimes more than half).

Instead, they chase the cheap and take these gambles that can really mess with people. In my case, the borrowers were looking at thousands of dollars in penalties.

Seriously... dear Title Companies, call us directly!

Reply by ikando on 5/26/12 4:56pm
Msg #421971

Somehow the SS find us (Google? Membership sites?), so I don't know how difficult it would be for Title to have someone do the same. I'm sure that's how Marian was located at the last minute. I doubt the SS who got canceled passed her information back to Title.

So I agree with both Hugh and Marian. Hugh because the location niche is what the SS are filling; Marian because the Title/lending companies offer the remote closing as an option, so they probably already have someone who contacts the SS to contact the notary.

While a person shouldn't use a broad brush on any particular business, too often the bad apples spoil the barrel. If Title/lenders want to continue to offer the convenience of remote closers to their clients, it seems to me to be in their best interest to weed out those which are rotten...SS or notary.

And one or two errors, in my opinion, does not a rotten provider make. Even the in-house people have bad days. It's when complaints are received on a regular basis that the SS is not paying their subcontracted notaries, or the notary is routinely screwing up, then action should be taken.