Posted by BBuchler/CA on 5/3/12 6:25pm
Msg #419798

CA Notary law - DOT

"A notary public may not notarize a document that is incomplete. If presented with a document for notarization, which the notary public knows from his or her experience to be incomplete or is without doubt on its face incomplete, the notary public must refuse to notarize the document. (Government Code section 8205)" Notary Public Handbook 2012

"I'm a California notary Public and routinely receive incomplete Loan Doc's from Title companies and signing agencies, particulalry the DOT is missing the assessor's legal description, usually labeled "Exhibit A" or "Schedule A. . . .As a matter of California notary law, the description is part of the DOT and its ommission at signing makes the DOT incomplete, and therefore the DOT is unable to be notarized" From a CA Notary.

Hmmm, what say you notary folks? Time for us to stop notarizing the DOT if Exhibit A/Schedule A is missing from the pkg and title won't take the time to give it to us?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/3/12 6:56pm
Msg #419799

Not necessarily....

Remember that the contents of a document are none of our concern as a Notary. As long as the document appears complete (no blanks) then we are usually fine. Also, the "complete' part only refers to content that occurs before the signatures/notary certificate... Exhibits and schedules are additional documents.

Consider if the document was in a language you didn't understand. As long as there were no obvious blanks, you're okay to notarize.

The big thing with deeds is that the reference to the Exhibit, schedule or appendix is just that... a reference to an additional document that is added after the signatures.

Reply by BBuchler/CA on 5/3/12 7:47pm
Msg #419803

"Also, the "complete' part only refers to content that occurs before the signatures/notary certificate"

I'm going to play devils advocate here Marian - but where does it say "only refers . . " in our handbook. And the "reference" is before the notary part.

And, if the DOT can be recorded WITHOUT the exhibit, well then, I guess the exhibit is additional doc, but if it CANNOT be recorded without it, then its an intregal part of the document, albeit at the very end.

And who am I, the notary, to determine Exhibit A's "criticalness" in terms of the document?

I too get the "if it was a foreign language" and was planning on using that as my "what were you thinking" comment, but the fact is its not. Its in plain english, and I know that Exhibit A is not attached. So, given that circumstance, I backed off my "WTH" comment.

This is the slippery slope I keep referring to. If we decide to interpret the rules where they are not specific, each one of us is going to do something different. You say Exhibit A is additional and not necessary to the "completion" of the document. I say its intregal and can't notarize without it. Unless you and I confer, we're going blightly along our merry way doing something different to the same document.

I'd so hate to be the one stopping that $35 million deal, being a cog doncha know, by saying that Exhibit A is not attached, the document is incomplete, and I'm not doing it! And stamping my foot 2 or three times to make my point.

Reply by Buddy Young on 5/3/12 10:27pm
Msg #419829

Re: Listen to Marian n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 5/3/12 8:09pm
Msg #419807

Although this isn't about whether a deed missing "Exhibit A" is incomplete, it really isn't "the assessor's legal description". Ideally legal descriptions are created by land surveyors; in less ideal circumstances, who knows where it came from. But very often the assessor's tax map matches neither the legal description in the deed, nor the actual boundaries of the property.

Reply by ikando on 5/3/12 8:35pm
Msg #419813

I find it ironic that of all the CYA docs we're required to print for closing, the one document that describes the metes & bounds of the property involved is rarely included in the package. To further the purpose I've been hired, the closing of a loan, I do notarize the mortgaga/DOT w/o the legal description. Don't know what happens at filing with the government entity if it's forgotten.

Reply by BowmanServices.net on 5/3/12 10:00pm
Msg #419822

Curious... is it part of the document, or isn't it? A legal description or assessors survey?
The standard in GC8205 is "knows from his or her experience to be incomplete or is without doubt on its face incomplete".

So here's the issues: 1) Its your Bond and E&O, if there EVER comes an issue, your on the hook for not having received the "complete" document -- willing to defend it in court?
2) Just suppose someone attaches the wrong exhibit to the DOT (for example) AFTER the DOT has been notarized -- (hmmm... can 'they' do that?). Now, the DOT has one address, the exhibit another, can you say "I always and only notarize documents with all pages and exhibits attached" under penalty of perjury?

Reply by sanjqnvly on 5/3/12 11:48pm
Msg #419833

The Loan Package is usually sent back to Title Company after BO signs and they have to add the legal description before Deed of Trust or Grant Deed are recorded

Reply by BrendaTx on 5/4/12 6:13am
Msg #419841

"So here's the issues: 1) Its your Bond and E&O, if there EVER comes an issue, your on the hook for not having received the "complete" document -- willing to defend it in court?
2) Just suppose someone attaches the wrong exhibit to the DOT (for example) AFTER the DOT has been notarized -- (hmmm... can 'they' do that?). Now, the DOT has one address, the exhibit another, can you say "I always and only notarize documents with all pages and exhibits attached" under penalty of perjury?"

That's a lot of what-iffery and faulty logic, IMHO.

Reply by BBuchler/CA on 5/4/12 10:14am
Msg #419861

It appears, based on a lot of comments on NotRot, that thinking out the entire scenario of what you are doing is dumb. If that is so, why have E&O insurance? If I am going to notarize a document, then I need to know that "down the road" its not going to bite me in the a**. Otherwise why would I care about the wording of our ack and jurats? Because they're not correct, and I could get in big trouble "down the road".

If more people would "think it through" about a lot of things, then life might just be easier. It doesn't take but a minute to mentally review what may happen in any given situation.

If the state says we have to have a complete document, and the document is NOT complete without the attachment, then we cannot notarize the document. No one here has determined that the attachment is irrelevant and without it the document is complete. They have speculated that the notarial wording at the end of the document "completes" the document and anything behind it is surperfluious.

Until it is clear what "completes" a DOT, then each of us makes our own determination and takes a roll on the dice.

Reply by janCA on 5/4/12 11:55am
Msg #419885

Re: CA notary law - DOT n/m

Reply by janCA on 5/4/12 11:57am
Msg #419888

Sorry, don't know what happened there.