Posted by bfnotary on 5/7/12 7:02am
Msg #420117

What would you all do if you knew a notary backdated?

I got a call Friday for a Saturday am signing. The notary that was scheduled for it for Friday no-showed. So they called me and asked me if I could do it on saturday. I accepted the signing for $XXX. A few minutes later they called me asking me to backdate it. I told them I could not do that. That is against the law, and I could lose my notary commission. So they unscheduled me for it. Then about 20 minutes later they called me back, asking me to do the signing. I said I would only do it, if i could use saturdays date. And that I would not back date. They accepted. Then 10 minutes later they called back asking if they could pay $50.00 more to back date. I said if I could I would, however that is illegal, and I would not do it. They said they would give me a call back if they couldn't find someone else to do it. Apparently they did find someone else to do it. What would you guys do. Let it go, or report the notary?


That is kinda hurting my business when notaries will do illegal stuff to get business. It shouldn't be to hard to find out who the notary was should it? In previous posts, I have seen people say at the courthouse at the recorder of deeds, they have records of signings in the area? Is that correct?

I haven't decided if I should get that notary in trouble or not. Or if I should just let it go. It may be none of my business. But on the other hand, whomever that notary is jacking alot of business by doing illegal stuff. Which can be hurting me, and the other notaries in my area that are good, and obey the law at the same time. I am stuck. What would you guys do?

Any thoughts? Oh and any questions about me, (since I purposely unlinked my profile), Or the company who called me, just pm me.

Reply by Lee/AR on 5/7/12 7:17am
Msg #420118

If you walk into the courthouse thinking/saying: "at the courthouse at the recorder of deeds, they have records of signings in the area?", you are going to be surprised. What they have is a record of everything that was recorded indexed by name (& other ways). So, if you know the signers name, you can see the mortgage that was recorded and who the notary involved was. However, this will not happen instantly.

As to turning him/her in... your call, but most SOS could care less as you can't actually prove it was backdated. He said/she said isn't proof.

Reply by bfnotary on 5/7/12 7:19am
Msg #420119

yes They did send me a confirmation email, which had the borrowers name on it.

Reply by bfnotary on 5/7/12 7:22am
Msg #420120

you have a point on the he said/she said stuff, that is the main reason I haven't decided, However even if I don't turn in the particular notary. I will call him/her. And let them know I am on to em. Lol. Not only does that hurt my business and fellow notaries businesses. The borrower also loses a day in the right to recission.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 5/7/12 8:09am
Msg #420121

I notice that the proposal is to get the notary in trouble, but let the entity that requested the backdating off scot-free. A profession that was really self-policing would make a note of the back-dating request in a place equivalent to Signing Central, and notaries who saw lots of complaints about backdating requests would refuse to do business with the company, just as they refuse to do business with companies that don't pay. But in reality, the non-paying companies linger on all to long, so the backdate-requesters would probably survive too.

Reply by jba/fl on 5/7/12 8:39am
Msg #420123

And the requesters do survive.

I have mentioned one company here that has fervent, rabid almost, support of them by the notary community here. The prevailing thought appears to be that they weren't asked, so it doesn't matter, they will take their signings and keep these people in business anyway. Since I was asked on 2 different occasions, I am sure I am not the only one this company has asked.

For a complaint to be filed, BF, it must be filed by the injured party; in this instance the borrower as they are the ones who are out a day to cancel....they have 3 years to do this now. You, of course, have nothing to sweat. You cannot be mother to the world any more than you can police the world. You can only uphold your own code of conduct. Kudos to you, now let it go. Life it too short for you to hang on to others problems.

Reply by bfnotary on 5/7/12 9:25am
Msg #420128

I plan on putting info in on signing central about the company. To be honest, I don't appreciate the fact that any company, knowing we could lose our commisons, would even ask. So I definately plan on updating signing central on them.

Reply by jba/fl on 5/7/12 1:14pm
Msg #420168

In many states it is a crime to ask someone to do illegal

things. I too resent it.

Reply by bfnotary on 5/7/12 9:34am
Msg #420131

Signing Central is now updated for said company.

Reply by OR on 5/7/12 8:32am
Msg #420122

Re: If the Notary was a no show how do you....

determine that He/She back dated? He/She was a no show to the signing? Maybe I did not read your post correctly. Just asking.

Reply by bfnotary on 5/7/12 9:28am
Msg #420129

Re: If the Notary was a no show how do you....

The notary that was scheduled on Friday for the signing, no showed. They were unable to even reach her by phone. That is why I was being asked to back date. The documents I guess had to be done on that day. They told me that if they could not get another notary to back date they would have me do it with Saturdays date. which I would have refused the signing anyways, due to the fact, The borrower probably wouldn't sign with a higher interest rate.

Reply by jba/fl on 5/7/12 9:18am
Msg #420126

"Oh and any questions about me, (since I purposely unlinked my profile), "

Once you have linked, you are archived that way through perpetuity. Unlinked - still archived, in that manner. You are definitely searchable if someone wants to know. The question is: does anyone care enough? Answer: some will, esp. if you become sharp-tongued.

Reply by bfnotary on 5/7/12 9:30am
Msg #420130

The only reason I unlinked my profile for this post was so if the company realized it was them I was talking about, they would have to search to find me. However now that I think about it, I probably will not accept any more signings from them due to the fact they could care less if I broke the law and lost my commission to benefit them.

Reply by walthtz on 5/7/12 9:52am
Msg #420132

How would you prove that a Notary backdated? It would seem to me unless you know the name of the Notary you would have NO case.
Also, if you contact the BR's in question, they would have blank copies.
And in the Br's eyes, they would be minus 1 day of the right to cancel which might be in their best intrestes to have the loan close faster.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/7/12 10:01am
Msg #420135

Isn't that easy to figure out?

OP already has name of borrower - check recorded docs in about 30 days..they already know that as of Saturday, 5/5/12 this loan was not closed - if mortgage/security instrument shows up recorded and dated for 5/4/12...voila?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 5/7/12 10:06am
Msg #420136

Re: Isn't that easy to figure out?

If the borrower wants to get out of the loan, Linda's approach might work. But if the borrower is happy, the borrower, title company, signing service, title company and notary could all just say there was a miscommunication, and the notary really did show up on the date stated in the notary's certificate. Whoever called another notary and asked for a notary on Saturday had not yet been informed that the signing had already been done.

Reply by ME/NJ on 5/7/12 10:10am
Msg #420138

Simple to prove if you were the original notary in

Ocean County, I have had a couple over the years, given the confirm and just before documents arrived they would ask the question and would move on once you say no. All you have to do is check online with Ocean County since mortgage can be viewed and you have the name and borrowers address. You see who did the loan. Most TC's move on when you say no, and it does not hurt your rating either.

I know a few who back date in Ocean County, again not up to me the notaries who do this take the risk of getting caught and face penalties.

Reply by HisHughness on 5/7/12 11:09am
Msg #420149

Re: Simple to prove if you were the original notary in

***not up to me the notaries who do this take the risk of getting caught and face penalties.***

There are major problems with this approach, illustrated exceedingly well by this case. Forget the idea that we are morality enforcers; that doesn't even enter into it. Focus on this: THIS KIND OF THING COSTS US MONEY.

At the absolute minimum, the notary in this case lost a fee. But it almost surely will go beyond that. The signing service has found a tame notary who jumped through their hoops to do the job. That is the notary who will be getting their business in the future. And it doesn't stop there. If any other siging service ever approaches him, the same scenario will play out: He will get their business in the future.

The icing on the cake is that any notary who is unprofessional enough to backdate under these circumstances is also one who probably does those $65 signings. And any signing service that would so assiduously solicit an unlawful action by a notary is also likely one of those who show so little regard for the profession by insisting on those $65 signings.

The signing service solicited a criminal act. Fundamentally, what you have is a criminal conspiracy between the signing service and the notary.

By all means, I would find out who the notary was. I would report him to the secretary of state, the district attorney and the county attorney of the jurisdiction, and the attorney general. I would do it by certified letter to each official.

Reply by Barb25 on 5/7/12 11:52am
Msg #420154

Re: Simple to prove if you were the original notary in

Good luck with this. Did you see the documentary "Inside Job" about the financial crisis of the mortage industry. Or any other documentaries for that matter. Point is most of the "criminals" involved haven't even been brought up on charges. Who is going to follow through on this. I think that the best that can be expected is that these companies will shoot themselves in the foot. One of these borrowers will want to get out of their loans and will make noise and then and only then will the banks be forced act and these Signing companies and notaries will be in trouble.

The only person you can keep honest is yourself. And even if you know you can prove something can you get someone to do something, how? Interesting.

Anyhow that is what I am thinking.

Reply by ME/NJ on 5/7/12 12:05pm
Msg #420157

Re: Simple to prove if you were the original notary in

Hugh can only speak for myself, most of these jobs were not $65 dollar deals, in fact high paying. Plus all of them come from TC's none were ever offered by a SS. Now if you know NJ politics getting something done like this would need to involve someone of power, media coverage or making money for the state.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 5/7/12 12:16pm
Msg #420162

Re: Simple to prove if you were the original notary in

It seems to me that the backbone of our profession is dating our certificates for the day the person personally appeared before us. If scummy SSs, TCs, notaries want to let that slide, so be it. It goes on ALL the time. We're not the notary police; unfortuntely, it seems, nobody is.

Still, backdating is so antithetical to the very purpose of notarydom, I believe I would report it. But you will need to get all your ducks in a row because if everybody gangs up against you and changes their story, you might have a heckava time proving otherwise. Here's the scenario I would follow: First. I'd have to know where the property was located so I'd know where the deed was being recorded because I would need a copy of the signature page as well as the notary certificate.
It takes only about a week for the county recorder to file stuff here, so I'd march down there and get all the "evidence" (assuming the property was recorded near me). But before all that, I'd do some sleuthing: you need to determine that the borrowers did indeed sign Saturday but the certifidate was dated Friday. I'll leave that up to you as to how to determine that, but I'd be making a phone call or two checking up on things. Be sure to keep immacuate records of all the phone calls from the very beginning and what was said.

If it were me, I think I'd just up and call the borrowers, say I was called Saturday to do the signing but I couldn't make it (true), ask if they signed Saturday and find out through chitchat what happened with the Friday no-show. I suppose many people might expect you to be forthcoming with the borrowers as to why you're calling, but .... it's up to you how you want to explain it. Fact is, borrowers probably have no idea that backdating is such a crime among notaries and saw nothing wrong with being asked to date Friday on Saturday. Once I was satisfied that deception did occur, I think I might call the notary and say, hey, they called me first to backdate. Did you do it? Then, depending on that outcome, I'd make my decision as to what to do. If I were convinced that I could prove what happened, I'd do pretty much what Hugh said, with CC to the notary.

Reply by bfnotary on 5/7/12 2:24pm
Msg #420177

Re: Simple to prove if you were the original notary in

The response Hugh gave is the main reason I was debating on whether to turn this notary in or not. Myself and other notaries in my area are going to be suffering due to this notary. All because they wanted to do something illegal and unethical. All they thought of is the money, and not about any thing else. And yes they are probably also the ones that take those cheap fees of $65.. I would love to see that notary not in the field. But I don't know.

I do appreciate all the responses tho. It will probably help me make my decision. I will probably give it a week or 2 to be at the recorders office, before i check it out. And then go from there. I will for sure call the notary tho, and give a warning even if i dont turn em in.

I am still a little new at this, but I obey the laws. I have went out of the way to help companies with binds, (and other notary mess ups), But only if it is within the law.

Thanks again all. I really appreciate it.

Reply by Barb25 on 5/7/12 3:09pm
Msg #420184

And by what authority would you be calling these borrowers,

asking all these questions? Do you think there may no be some privacy issues amonst other things... This is somewhat out of control, No? The person in trouble could possibly be the caller.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 5/7/12 3:52pm
Msg #420189

That's a good point, Barb25

I don't know on whose authority I'd be calling anybody or doing any of the proposed stuff. I don't even know if I need authority. Maybe a notary who has a whiff of illegal activity is all the authority I need. I'd have to seriously think about it. As to privacy, recorded deeds are public info, so that would not be an issue. Maybe, attorney Hugh could shed some light on all this.

Anyway, if this were on my watch and I intended to report the crooked notary, I'd have to be pretty sure he/she was crooked before I made any accusations, and I was just throwing out ideas on how to substantiate that.

Occasionally, there are posts here where notaries encourage other notaries to report alleged wrongdoing. It's one thing to go after a suspected bad notary, another to be able to prove it. We just can't go in swinging without all the facts. For example, I just had a signing where the borrowers had to get a document notarized before the loan could be drawn. It was an affidavit, and the mail store notary did not use a CA complaint jurat (a big no-no here) nor did she deliver an oath, according to the borrowers. Now, a copy of this doc was included in the loan pkg; I could easily turn her in for her totally obvious mistakes, which are misdemeanors, and using the wrong jurat has a $700 fine (as I remember from my last notary test). But this OP backdating situation is different.

Reply by HisHughness on 5/8/12 8:11am
Msg #420233

Let us clear up something

It is not the responsibility of a citizen to prove that a crime has taken place. If you have information that indicates criminal activity, your <maximum> responsibility, if you wish to get involved, is to pass that information on to the appropriate authority and let them do the investigation. The OP in this case has adequate information to indicate that a crime has taken place.

As to calling the borrowers, you don't need any authority to do that, just as you don't need any authority to call them up and ask if the sun rose in their neighborhood that morning. It's a phone call, and unless you masquerade as something you are not, it's just a phone call.

For myself, once I determined that the deed had indeed been filed and backdated, I wouldn't need either phone call to the borrower or encouragement to report to the authorities. I wouldn't call the notary; I'm neither his conscience nor his professional overseer. If he backdated the deed, he committed a crime. Far beyond that, though, he committed a crime that cost me money, the same as if he had lifted my wallet.

I'm the confrontational sort. I'm not willing to let that go.

Reply by Barb25 on 5/8/12 3:44pm
Msg #420299

Really, Hugh are you kidding me. Well if someone

called me about my loan who was not involved with my loan. I would be asking them who the hell they were and what right they had to be calling me asking me these questions.... That is what I meant. I cannot believe you are saying this both as a private citizen and as an attorney past or present.

Reply by Mike Goodey on 5/7/12 7:16pm
Msg #420202

Let it go and and be thankful you have the decency to be honest. Obviously the company that called wasn't!

Reply by Gina/VA on 5/8/12 7:48am
Msg #420230

May I add a small comment? If anyone ever decides to report a notary for an assumption of an illegal act, make sure you are doing so for the sole purpose of putting an end to the illegal activity, not just because you need/want that notary's business.