Posted by roxynotary on 5/24/12 5:51pm
Msg #421787

Your reactions........

Is it OK to proceed with a loan signing when the wife is the only loan applicant (the husband is on the title) BUT WHEN the wife is trying to hide the loan application from the husband?

Reply by Karla/WA on 5/24/12 6:03pm
Msg #421790

Check with the title company to ensure the requirements of the signing.

Reply by roxynotary on 5/24/12 6:08pm
Msg #421793

The SS said it's OK but I do not believe it. The wife does not want her husband to see her debt.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/24/12 6:17pm
Msg #421794

Well, you're in California, right? It's may be perfectly legal. IF the lender isn't worried...why are you?

Not that I approve of hiding taking on new debt from a spouse on a personal level... but from a notary perspective, why does it matter?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/24/12 6:26pm
Msg #421796

Here's an example...

The reason I say this is because there may be MANY reasons why this happens. Last year I met a lady who was taking out an auto equity loan on her car. The title had both names, but because it was an "or" thing on it, she had the right to borrow against it if she wanted to.

The lender was very clear with me that I was to only contact her using a specific cell phone number, and when I did, we made arrangements to meet at a restaurant during her lunch break.

Why? It was the only source of fast cash that she could get. While we were there she volunteered that she needed to money to rent an apartment because she leaving her husband, who had been abusing her. She had no control over their finances and no access to any of their money, including her own paycheck because it was direct deposited. She'd been working all week to set everything up, had friends helping, etc, but didn't have quite enough to pay for the apartment in a secured building.

I absolutely believed her. She was with two of her friends, and you could see faded bruises on her face.

She didn't need to tell me all of that, but they were scared that I'd say something, which of course, I would never dream of doing.

My point being... you never know why this kind of thing happens, and if the lender isn't concerned, why question it?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 5/26/12 2:52am
Msg #421904

Spouse needs to sign

If the signing service said this was OK, then they don't know what they're talking about - or maybe they're from another state? In CA, like Linda S. said, IF a spouse IS on title, they *have to* sign the DOT, TIL, (and RTC, if there is one), etc. - period. A person on title is a co-owner and has a legal right to know about a loan being taken against their property, even if there's a good reason to hide that information from them. I'm no expert on this, but I think someone would have to go to court to try to exclude a spouse in this type of a situation, and I'm not sure if there would be any chance for it to fly.

If it were me in the OP's shoes, I'd likely be on the phone to the title co. asking them about it. I ask, I don't tell them how they "should" do it; there are diplomatic ways of bringing potential problems to the attention of those who know - and who can often fix it.

I can't count how many times I've noticed something that wasn't right, then brought it to the attention of the right person who was able to take action and the signing was able to be completed as scheduled. I don't believe it should be our *responsibility* to find those things, but
when we know something isn't going to fly, why not try to do something about it? I don't want to waste my time and the borrower's, risk possibly getting less than full fee, and possibly see someone miss a rate lock, etc. if I can help it.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 5/24/12 6:06pm
Msg #421792

I think it depends... and in many cases, it's none of our business.

For example, what if it's is a car? The title to the vehicle has an OR between both names. That means that either title holder, without the others permission or consent can borrow against the equity, trade it in, etc. There could be millions of reasons why this happens, and it's really none of our business as to why. The couple chose that when they put their names on the title.

If the lender (whether it be for a vehicle, house, or whatever) get to the point where they are asking you to get a signature, then they are aware that the other spouse doesn't need to sign... and in California, it's perfectly legal.

You have to be careful to keep your moral judgments out of this kind of thing. Goodness knows I find myself having to check myself a lot - as a Notary, you're not there to judge them. You're there to verify their signature.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 5/24/12 6:34pm
Msg #421797

Not your concern - nor is it title's or SS's

Just go do your job - if they get into it over the app that's something between them and if it gets too heated, pack up your toys and leave....then contact hiring party as soon as you're safe in hour vehicle.

Reply by roxynotary on 5/24/12 6:52pm
Msg #421798

Re: Not your concern - nor is it title's or SS's

This is what happened and the SS does not want to pay now

Reply by Linda Spanski on 5/24/12 6:57pm
Msg #421799

"Husband is on title"

Here in California if a spouse is on title he would have to sign certain documents such as the TIL; how could he NOT know she's getting a loan? If he refused to sign after seeing the docs, you should still get paid.

Reply by Alz on 5/24/12 9:02pm
Msg #421809

Make sure you always have an agreement in place

with your hiring party about no-signs, no-shows, etc. ahead of time. This generally helps when things like this occur.

Reply by PegiT_MN on 5/24/12 7:53pm
Msg #421801

One to buy.....two to refi or sell.....

.....if California is a marital state like Minnesota.....he's signing. And if he is on title.....there's no way around it. I can't believe anyone would think you could get around that. What kind of lender, title company, or signing service would even think that was okay for him to not sign?

Reply by MW/VA on 5/24/12 8:10pm
Msg #421803

Same here in VA. NBS would need to be there to sign

the critical docs & title docs. It wasn't your call to go ahead with the signing, right?
If it was, and you didn't notify someone that all parties weren't there, then it would be on you.
We never get into the personal issues--it's none of our business. We get documents signed, and make sure that all parties signing are who they say they are--nothing more, nothing less. :-)

Reply by desktopfull on 5/25/12 2:39pm
Msg #421864

Re: One to buy.....two to refi or sell.....

Florida is a spousal state and I've yet to have a spouse that wasn't on the note sign a 1003. Also if the spouse isn't on the note they can't get any information from the lender concerning the loan without written permission from the signer of the note. Title holders in spousal states only sign mtg, riders, til, aif, rtc, they aren't privey to spouses credit report unless the spouse wants to provide it to them. Who are we to judge that this is wrong anyway? Most of the spouses that aren't on the note want to sign their part first and go on back to what they were doing before I got there and then have me work with the one on the note. I don't have a problem doing that either.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/24/12 9:03pm
Msg #421810

<<<Is it OK to proceed with a loan signing when the wife is the only loan applicant (the husband is on the title) BUT WHEN the wife is trying to hide the loan application from the husband?>>>

I had a case where the signing was a reverse mortgage and the lady didn't want her son to know she was getting a RM because "he'd have a fit", as she put it. This son lived with her and would have been present somewhere in the house during the signing, probably wandering over to see what we were doing. She asked me to lie and say she was having insurance papers signed, if he started asking questions about who I was and why I was there.

I told this borrower that I wasn't going to do that and since her son would be there (somewhere in the house) and possibly interrupt and voice his disapproval of the signing and maybe start an argument, that we should meet at Starbucks. It was a hot summer day and she didn't want to leave her air conditioned house so I told her, if he so much as says "boo!" to me and stirs up any baloney, I'm packing up and leaving. She assured me he'd stay in his room and not bother us. The signing went fine.......I don't know what she said to him (probably threatened him) but he did not come out of that room. I could hear the TV blaring but never saw him.

If ever you are concerned about a situation turning ugly between the borrowers during the signing, for the reasons you described in your post, then INSIST on signing at Starbucks or McDonalds. JMHO

Reply by ArtG/KS on 5/24/12 10:38pm
Msg #421815

Kansas prohibits this altogether. Kansas law states that the non-borrowing vested interested party or spouse MUST sign the TIL, RTC and the mortgage. Usually the title company wants a few title docs signed also. Be sure of your own state laws on this.

I recently had a signing where there was a divorce three years ago but they did not remove the one spouse from title causing a redraw following a divorcee decree recording in the Register of Deeds office. The original docs included the divorced spouses name and since that spouse was not attending, it had to go through the process of removing that spouses name from title, then a redraw and reschedule.

Kansas states the purpose of that law is to be sure the non-borrowing vested interested party or spouse is aware that someone is taking out a note on the property.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/24/12 10:54pm
Msg #421822

My impression of the OP's post...

...is not so much "who signs what", but instead "Do I go to this home and sit amongst these two people when ONE of these people is keeping a secret from the other, a secret that will come to light at the table and now sparks will fly, which I'm sitting in the middle of.."

That's how I interpreted the OP's post, though I could be wrong.

Reply by Notarycat/CA on 5/24/12 10:52pm
Msg #421820

This can be a touchy situation. As a notary, we are to verify willingness to sign, as well as mental capacity. It is not our business to get involved in other people's marital issues or finances. There are many times that I have signed loans with a 'non-borrowing' spouse. An easy way around your scenario would be to have the husband sign first, and then mention he's free to leave. Most likely, he won't want to sit around and watch his wife sign stuff.

Just be careful for yourself. I was in a situation like this, and the husband became very abusive to his wife, and then tried to turn on me. Fortunately, my husband went with me since we knew the situation was volatile. As soon as we left the house we called the police.

Reply by KODI/CA on 5/24/12 10:58pm
Msg #421823

In California we do not determine "capacity".

Reply by RickG/CA on 5/25/12 12:13pm
Msg #421852

"As a notary, we are to verify willingness to sign, as well as mental capacity."

The commission that I received by taking a 6 hour course and passing a 30 question exam with an overwhelmingly average score as a minimum, hardly qualifies me to verify willingness and certainly not mental capacity.

Reply by LKT/CA on 5/26/12 12:00pm
Msg #421927

<<<The commission that I received by taking a 6 hour course and passing a 30 question exam with an overwhelmingly average score as a minimum, hardly qualifies me to verify willingness and certainly not mental capacity.>>>

Willingness to sign = Do you WANT to sign this paper? Yes/No

Mental capacity = Who are you? Where are you? What is this paper? Who's that person over there in the blue shirt?

This isn't string theory.

Reply by RickG/CA on 5/27/12 9:20am
Msg #421999

LKT, I see your point and I don't disagree (well maybe a bit on mental capacity questions). I'll limit my exposure with the duties at hand. I have basically one of two questions prior to stamping based on the situation:

Is this your signature on the document? Yes = Stamp; No = No Stamp

Do you affirm that the statements in this document are true? Yes = Stamp; No = No Stamp

Weather the person signing has the willingness or the mental capacity is another battle that clearly I choose not to be on either side.