Posted by Claudine Osborne on 11/3/12 9:12pm
Msg #442049

Incompetent BO

Thurs..I had a closing at a bank and the BO was a 74 yr old woman. From the first 5 min I knew something wasnt right..She had a companion with her who started doing all the talking. She needed funds so close and they brought cash..

I asked the BO for her ID and she handed it to me and when I made a copy I handed it back and she kept handing it back to me..and taking it and several other items out of her wallet and handing them to me..the companion went to get a cashiers check and while he was gone she did not say a word..

After she signed my journal she asked about the terms of the loan..She asked about 6 times in about 5 mins..We started looking at the HUD..and again she asked about the terms and if she paid more how long would it take to pay this off??

The companion (he said he was her fiancee) was so patient and kind to her it melted my heart..It was very evident that she was not competent to sign these documents..she kept saying she bought the "Rockefeller house" back in 1978 but she could not tell me how long she has lived in her present home or was not sure of what year it was..I really felt bad for her as she was trying so hard..She said she was very nervous..So I asked the companion to step outside so I could talk to her privately..She was so sweet but alone it was so much more evident..she was not well..

The companion came back into the room and he then said he has a POA! But she was not signing using the POA. I called TC and they said it was fine she could sign without it! Ummmm No my gut and intellect were screaming..So I very discreetly explained why we could not conitinue with this closing..

She did not react either way and the companion said "It was afraid this would happen" I asked the teller to void their check and return the cash..He did not want to count the cash..but I insisted and he did count it out loud..I just didnt want anything coming back to me or the bank..They left very quietly..they were both super nice about the whole situation!

I called the LO and asked him why this even went this far? His response was that he knew she was not competent but that they could not deny her credit!!

Wow!

Reply by PegiT_MN on 11/3/12 9:19pm
Msg #442053

Wow is right! I would love to say "I can't believe this could happen!".....but I know gosh darn well it's happenning all over the place. Thank God you did not go through with the signing.

Reply by ikando on 11/3/12 9:46pm
Msg #442061

Claudine, good for you for being ethical and looking out for the best interests of all the people, the borrower, her companion, and the bank personnel.

In some cases, what the loan officer suggested could be considered perpetrating fraud on a senior. And he was concerned about denying her credit? Sounds like he could care less.

I foresee a redraw with the companion using the POA if they choose to move forward with the loan.

Reply by JS_MD on 11/3/12 10:22pm
Msg #442066

Great job Claudine.....

This story upsets me. Thank goodness Claudine cared enough to do the right thing. Pisses me off that many signing services and tc's look for the "cheapest notary" who in many cases would not give a hoot about a situation like this. This is a fine example of an experienced, professional notary who made a difference. My hats off to you Claudine. The LO is an unethical idiot. LO should know better and did know better by comments made. Just worried about getting that commission no matter what it takes......
Don't even get me started on Ms. Borrowers significant other. May he go away....

Reply by HSH/WA on 11/3/12 10:30pm
Msg #442067

Re: Wow!!! Some of you may be over reacting - think??

Was the refi to lower her pmt - or money for the boy friend? Was the LO trying to help - or just get a commission? I agree with the outcome, do to the compency issue, but the other comments???

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 11/3/12 10:30pm
Msg #442068

Re: Great job Claudine.....

The LO could care less..I do a lot of his loans..They are usually ok..his comments sometimes makes me wonder..I can sleep well at night knowing I am ethical..In situations like this an experienced NSA makes a difference..Im glad it was me..

Reply by 101livescan on 11/4/12 8:24am
Msg #442095

Re: Great job Claudine.....

Claudine, I had a similar incident recently. 85 year old woman, RM signing, daughter met me at the door and wondered why I hadn't coordinated the signing appointment with her. I told her I did not know about her or have her phone number.

Mom, coiffed, pedicured/manicured and perfumed, dressed in her nighty, sitting in a walker with breakfast tray in front of her, was ready to sign. She gave me one good signature, that's all she had in her. She had had a stroke two years ago, and the brain/hand motor coordination was not there. I asked her what her address was and how long had she lived in her home, the daughter kept piping up answering for Mom, she was the keeper of Mom's drivers license, which had expired within 60 days of this signing.

Okay, so we proceed to sign and it is quite apparent she can't sign her name twice the same way, she tells me she is fatigued half way through the process. The daughter was within earshot and says, I was a notary, she can sign with two witnesses by mark. I tell her only if the lender understands that in the very beginning, before the docs are drawn. They have to say it's okay piror to docs being drawn as part of the UWing process.

I leave the house and contact the people who sent me out there, and give a report of my experience, and I return the docs to Title/Escrow. Title/Escrow decide I was right, Mrs. Borrower is not competent and her signatures, hardly readable and not the same from beginning to end, their legal counsel makes the executive decision not to continue with this escrowed loan package. Daughter threatens lawsuit, legal counsel says, go ahead, you're not the borrower or owner of property and not in a position to file a claim.

The daughter writes Title/Escrow and the Loan Officer a letter complaining that I was haranging her mother, telling her to try to make her to signature as readable as possible, well, it was not possible. I was very patient, sitting at this little breakfast tray, trying to obtain signatures. She could not write the word "trustee", couldn't connect the dots...Daughter comes into the room and I'm getting up to leave, and she says, well, I know mom gave you the best signatures she has, and explained Mom had trouble seeing, she has scheduled catarac surgery coming up, and she gets easily tired. She informed me that she has power of attorney, and I said well, if the lender had set it up that way, POA signings are possible, but need to be preapproved by Lender.

BTW, did you know that RM's have to be signed by the borrower, and can't be signed with POA? That was a new one for me. I have done a RM where the wife signed by mark with two witnesses who took an oath that they knew the borrower and that she signed under her own power and she was competent to sign. She was just extremely frail at 95 years of age.

Apparently, the Loan Officer and Daughter contrived this little loan endeavor. Who knows where the money was going, perhaps to place mom into a facility as she requires 24/7 care. The house is 50 years old, probably requires a lot of work now. Do other siblings know about the loan, questions I would not venture to ask, but makes you wonder what motives and agenda are.

Well, I'm not sorry that I had to report back that Mom was struggling to figure out how to write her name, didn't know what the date was, couldn't write trustee after her name.

Daughter writes a complaint letter to SOS and says she quoted the civil code to me and that I could have mom sign by mark with her as a witness and the caregiver the second witness (not sure if daughter could be a witness in this event). Civil Code never came up that afternoon. She did tell me she had been a notary and worked for a real estate company in town, I think she went back to her office and figured out she was right about the civil code and quoted it in her letter, but certainly not to me. Well, I'm pretty sure I won't hear anything from the SOS, but if I do, I have documented the event well in my journal. I'm pretty sure this is not the first complaint of this type that's been filed with SOS.

These loan officers are incomprehensible, but deals are harder and harder to find, so what the heck, let's run for it, see what happens. They make a hefty commission on these expensive RMs.

I'll be watching for a for sale sign on this property. If daughter has POA, she can sell the property, but then she might have to split proceeds with siblings since the house is in Mom's trust, and then there is mom's ongoing care.

I will never know what the real scenario is, but I know Mom can't be the borrower, I'm pretty sure she doesn't pay her own bills.

I have decided I will no longer be accepting RM signing requests.

Reply by GWest on 11/4/12 10:03am
Msg #442106

Just on a side note regarding POA

Unless the Trust was written with very specific verbiage, a Power of Attorney can not be used when the property is in a Trust. Very few trusts that I have viewed have this verbiage included.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 11/4/12 10:59am
Msg #442115

Cheryl, they are not all like that.

You can run into the same thing with any kind of mortgage loan signing. My hubby has an RM. He's not incompetent.

Reply by 101livescan on 11/4/12 1:09pm
Msg #442126

Re: Cheryl, they are not all like that.

I've done plenty of these, more than I can count, over the years. However, times have changed. Wells Fargo, BofA and others have ceased uw'ing these products. It seems lately that the RM's I've signed have been frought with issues, so I'm making the executive decision to not take these on due to: uw'ing issues, LO issues, borrower issues, huge packages by their very nature, and the time it takes to perform them. I'm hopping busy with normal run of the mill refis and purchase loans. I also don't feel like I need this kiind of sabotage from the "cihldren" in the wings.

Personally, it makes me sick to see all the exorhibant fees the RM lender charges for this product, taking advantage of people who really don't have that much equity in their homes to begin with due to the housing market these days, and the lender helps themselves to a huge piece of the pie. Rather, I like the no-cost loans I'm doing every day! where the LO is paid by the lender, not by the client, and all costs are credited back to the client. Smooth, people are actually over joyed to see me, and well, all notaries who are fortunate to do this kind of work.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/4/12 4:57pm
Msg #442152

Well said, Cheryl

Couldn't agree more about the lender charges. When there's plenty of equity, these loans can be a life saver for some, but as it gets lower and lower, the percentage of the pie that goes to upfront fees gets higher and higher. Just doesn't feel right, but I guess some people have few other options. Very sad.

Reply by MW/VA on 11/4/12 8:27am
Msg #442096

Good job, Claudine. If there's a valid POA then they need

to go through the process of having the lender approve it, yadayadayada.
I'm thinking about his comment about knowing she wasn't competent, but they can't deny her credit. The way the laws are written that may be correct. Regardless, he should have used the POA route & saved everyone the embarrassment. It's a shame the borrower & her companion had to endure that humiliation.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 11/4/12 9:02pm
Msg #442205

Re: Good job, Claudine. If there's a valid POA then they need

I do not believe that the LO or TC knew that there was a POA..I brought it up to TC during while with the BO..I was very discreet and tried my darndest not to humiliation this couple..The loan was to reduce her monthly payments only no cash out..

In speaking to the LO again the next day he said they will be going forward with using the POA..Why this wasnt done to begin with is anyones guess..I am sure I will be doing their closing this LO always asks for me!