Posted by PegiT_MN on 11/3/12 8:32pm
Msg #442036

Let's Discuss Backdating

Many posters have brought up the subject of backdating and that we need to be aware of how unethical this practice is. I think it is very important that we are all aware of what exactly would be considered backdating. Some of these title companies, signing companies, and loan officers may very well be asking notaries to do something that would be considered backdating but they say that it is not.

I do not believe that I have ever personally been put in this position, but a little more clarification on the subject of backdating from some of our more seasoned notaries would be very educational for all of us.

Some examples of what would be considered backdating would be fabulous, and possibly some examples of what would not be considered backdating would be nice too.

For example: You go to a signing on Friday, November 2, 2012, and the borrower signs all the paperwork, you double check your work for errors at the table, everything looks great, and you head home for the evening. Saturday morning you get up to do your triple check before shipping the documents back to the lender and you realize that the borrower forgot to date the note. You quickly call the borrower and tell him that we have forgotten to date the note and you need to come by his house first thing this morning to get it taken care of. Today is now Saturday, November 3, 2012. If you are requesting him to date the note for Friday, November 2, 2012, would this be considered backdating?

Thank you in advance for your contributions to this post and your expertise in the area of backdating so that we may all be the best notaries we can be.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 11/3/12 8:42pm
Msg #442038

IMO, your example is not really valid because the note is not a notarized document (except for possibly VA) and most notes I have seen require only a signature from the borrower as the date is pre-printed on the face of the note.

Backdating generally refers to a notary filling in a date on the notarial certificate that does not match the date the signer is actually appearing before them.

Last Friday, 10/26/12, I was asked to perform a refinance closing but was unable to coordinate a time to meet with the borrower. The SS suggested I could meet with him Saturday morning and just date everything with Friday's date. I refused as this would be backdating.

The SS owner then asked if I could meet with the borrower on Saturday and just obtain signatures (not notarize) and overnight the documents back to him. Again, I refused as I did not want to facilitate a loan signing where I knew someone else would then be notarizing signatures on documents that he did not actually witness being signed.

Reply by PegiT_MN on 11/3/12 8:47pm
Msg #442041

Yikes.....

.....I had no idea that a ss would even suggest such a thing.......I have never encountered this.....thank goodness. I was thinking there may be something that constitutes backdating that I didn't know about and I wanted to make sure I wasn't doing anything I wasn't supposed to. Thank you so very much for your clarification of backdating.

As far as the note goes.......I think US Bank is the only one I know of where the borrower needs to date the note beside their signature.

Thanks again Teresa for your clarificaiton.

Reply by ToniK on 11/3/12 8:43pm
Msg #442040

I think backdating is when you get docs say Nov 2, 2012 but the docs came extremely late so the BO doesnt want to meet that night due to being late so they prefer meeting Nov 3. You inform Title or Hiring party and they say use Nov 2 doc but sign as Nov 2 even though you are signing docs for the first time by BO on Nov 3.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 11/3/12 8:47pm
Msg #442042

What Toni just said is backdating...Its a NO NO

Reply by Alan Jorgensen on 11/4/12 2:21am
Msg #442081

I had that situation where the borrower didn't know he had a signing and could meet the next night. I called the SS and they said to use the docs with the date on them, but change the RTC with the borrower initialing the change. I dated all my stuff the day of the signing.

Reply by PegiT_MN on 11/3/12 8:59pm
Msg #442045

Thank you so much for the clarification on the subject of backdating. So far, it sounds as if backdating applies to the initial meeting with the borrower. I have another question. Would backdating apply if say a document or a few documents had been drawn up wrong and the title company requests you to make a return trip to the borrower's home to have him/her/them sign something so that the loan can still fund on time? For example: You discover during the signing that the borrower has just gotten married and it happens that you live in a spousal state. You inform Mr. Newlywed that Mrs. Newlywed will need to sign the spousal documents. Mrs. Newlywed's name is not on anything so you add a line on the mortgage, right to cancel, TIL, itemization of amount financed, and have her sign a name affidavit. Two days later the title company calls you and says that the lender has decided they would like to draw up new spousal documents adding Mrs. Newlywed's name on them and can you go back out and have them signed so the loan can still fund on time. Do Mr. and Mrs. Newlywed sign and date using the original date I met with them or is that considered backdating? Do I acknowledge the mortgage using the original date I met with them or is that considered backdating as well?

Thank you.

Reply by Clem/CA on 11/3/12 9:03pm
Msg #442047

Redraw

Reply by Teresa/FL on 11/3/12 9:08pm
Msg #442048

Your notarial certificates can only show the date the signers actually appeared before you. If new documents are being signed, you use the current date NOT the original date you met with them.

Reply by PegiT_MN on 11/3/12 9:14pm
Msg #442051

Thank You Teresa! n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 11/3/12 9:29pm
Msg #442057

I agree with Teresa/FL

<<<Backdating generally refers to a notary filling in a date on the notarial certificate that does not match the date the signer is actually appearing before them.>>

AGREED. Backdating has nothing to do with the dates on the documents....that is not the notary's responsibility. The notary is ONLY concerned with the date the borrowers appear before him/her, which is the date that goes in the notarial cert.

Example: You complete a loan signing today, November 3, 2012. Two weeks later on November 17th, the TC calls you and claims you forgot to get a form signed by the borrowers and notarized. Because you saved the original edoc file AND scanned the signed loan package into a secure file, your records indicate that this form was NOT part of the original loan signing. You offer to return to the borrowers for print, travel, notarization, and shipping fees to get the form signed and then you'll notarize it. The TC agrees and emails confirmation. You set an appt with borrowers for Nov. 19th. The TC asks you to put November 3, 2012 on your notarial cert (the original loan signing date) even though the borrowers are appearing before you for the 2nd time on Nov. 19th. If you put the Nov. 3, 2012 on your notarial cert when the borrowers are appearing before you on Nov. 19th, you have just backdated. If you put Nov. 19, 2012 on your cert, that is correct and lawful.

Reply by Teresa/FL on 11/3/12 9:42pm
Msg #442060

Lisa - great example of the type of requests we usually see n/m

Reply by PegiT_MN on 11/3/12 9:51pm
Msg #442062

Thank you Lisa n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 11/3/12 9:55pm
Msg #442063

U R welcome ;-) n/m

Reply by HSH/WA on 11/3/12 10:39pm
Msg #442069

Re: After signing the docs the LO had the BO

call me and ask to back date them to the previous Friday so it would close this month and he could get his commission. Naturally I said no, but I was thinking why would he wait until after signing to request this? And he didn't even offer me a mocha to do it.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/4/12 12:47am
Msg #442076

Re: After signing the docs the LO had the BO

If the document isn't being notarized, they can put any date next to their signature they want. But if you have to notarize, i.e. complete a notary certificate (and a journal entry for many of us), then that absolutely has to have the actual date when the signer personally appeared before you and you completed the notarization. In my state, it's a felony to do otherwise, with serious penalties. And even asking someone to do that, knowing it's illegal, is also a crime.

Reply by doglover/CA on 11/4/12 2:22am
Msg #442082

Re: After signing the docs the LO had the BO

One time I was asked by a SS to "recreate" a deed of trust which had been signed and notarized the previous week and rejected by the county recorder because it was damaged. They wanted me to meet with the borrowers to get a replacement deed of trust signed and notarized with the original signing date. I said I couldn't do it because backdating is illegal and they begged me to comply. One of the employees at the SS said, "I'm a notary myself and I have done this many times". I was instructed to backdate and not record the transaction in my journal book. Before going out to the appointment I called the SOS office and confirmed that I could not do what they asked me to do because it was a new notarial act. So when I was at the appointment I notarized with the current date I was meeting with the borrowers. When I spoke to the loan broker about what I had done and that I had spoken with the SOS office he told me that whoever took my call gave me the wrong information.

Reply by 101livescan on 11/4/12 8:56am
Msg #442104

Re: After signing the docs the LO had the BO

Yeah, right! Amazing what these SS's will do to keep clients, isn't it? Break the law, commit a felony prosecutable in a federal prison, minimum $10K fine and an other punative damages, loss of commission and ability to be bonded every again or commissioned again because now the notary has committed a felony?

Simply amazing, and yet, it is done again and again and again. There are signing services in Central Signing that do it routinely.

Another good reason not to work for them!

Reply by VT_Syrup on 11/4/12 8:03am
Msg #442091

Re: Let's Discuss Backdating...state variations

One area that varies by state is whether a notary has to finish the notarization in the presence of the signer, or is allowed to finish it later. There may be states where it would be legal to do a signing at 11 PM Friday, go home, have a nice cup of tea, finish the notarizations at 12:30 AM Saturday, but date them for Friday.

Another area of variation would be whether a notarial certificate could be corrected on a different day from the signing without changing the date.

My state laws and my notary handbook are silent on these issues.

Reply by Edward Cooke on 11/4/12 7:04pm
Msg #442187

Re: Let's Discuss Backdating...state variations

In Louisiana neither the notary nor the witnesses are required to sign at the same time as the principal(s) just as long as the notary and witnesses watched the principal(s) sign the document. So, theoretically the notary, et al. could sign the document a week after the principal but the date would be that of the principal's signing.