Posted by Carol Graff on 11/4/12 2:16pm
Msg #442132

Loan Officers driving me crazy

Two loans this week with name on DL not matching DOT. One DOT had name III and he said he is not legally the III!! Other had DL expired since April of 2012--she was not even aware of it. It seems they go by how the previous loan was recorded and never ck to see if name on DL is correct, current or expired.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/4/12 2:24pm
Msg #442133

How name appears on ID, or whether ID is expired or not

has no bearing on how docs are drawn - neither is how previous loan was recorded...docs are draw according to how they took title way back when. And if they've changed the name on their ID but have not changed their vesting then that's where the discrepancy comes in.

"Not legally III" - well, somewhere along the way they got the idea that he is "the III' because that's how he took title.

Reply by Carol Graff on 11/4/12 2:32pm
Msg #442134

Re: How name appears on ID, or whether ID is expired or not

I realize that. But unless the DL matches vesting, I cannot notarize. Loan should not get all the way to me w/o someone cking their ID.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/4/12 2:40pm
Msg #442137

Re: How name appears on ID, or whether ID is expired or not

"But unless the DL matches vesting, I cannot notarize."

Over 50% of the loans that I have done were not "matches."

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/4/12 5:53pm
Msg #442163

Re: How name appears on ID, or whether ID is expired or not

<<"But unless the DL matches vesting, I cannot notarize."

Over 50% of the loans that I have done were not "matches." >>



So how'd you know you had the right person?

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/4/12 5:58pm
Msg #442166

Refer to my other post in this thread. n/m

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/4/12 7:00pm
Msg #442185

Just did. Tnx! n/m

Reply by bfnotary on 11/4/12 6:16pm
Msg #442172

Re: How name appears on ID, or whether ID is expired or not

They don't have to be 100% match do they. I have to make sure I have satifactory evidence right? If a document say John Matt doe and DL says John M Doe. That is satifactory evidence right? Or John M Doe and DL says John Matt doe. That is the same person. When we buy our house I refuse to be on Title with middle name, however that is what is on my drivers license and SS card. I never use it. Not even MI on my ss card.

Plus 99% of the time, the dl address matches the property address. IMO, John M Doe and John Matt Doe, with same address are definately satisfactory evidence.

Reply by bfnotary on 11/4/12 6:17pm
Msg #442174

However I am not in CA, little old PA. Not as specific. n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/4/12 7:05pm
Msg #442188

Re: However I am not in CA, little old PA. Not as specific.

"Not as specific"

Not sure what you mean by that. There is absolutely nothing in CA notary law that defines how we determine what is "satisfactory evidence", other than the type of identification that can be used to make that judgment. Lots of people here have jumped to conclusions regarding CA notary law based on posts here, some of which, shall we say, are less than accurate.

A healthy dose of common sense is required in this business, but unfortunately it's not so common, imho...

Reply by ananotary on 11/4/12 9:26pm
Msg #442206

Janet- Solution to your month end financial loss

I make it a point to confirm every single closing and during that confirmation call I verify ID. Not only do I verify the name exactly as it reads on the license, I ask for the issue and expiration dates (To be sure they are reading the name off the license). If you had done that you would have known about the problem before you turned away 10-12 appointments and printed a ginormous loan package.

Has saved me many times from a "print/trip fee".

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/4/12 10:25pm
Msg #442209

Re: Janet- Solution to your month end financial loss

Actually, confirming that they have unexpired ID is a standard part of my routine, as well, although I don't pursue it quite to the degree that you do. But I remember having a hard time reaching him for a variety of reasons and being frustrated about it. They didn't return my calls until late in the day. By then, with my busy schedule, I didn't get through my usual checklist, even though I managed to talk to him more than once. I had a hard time keeping him on track and then reaching him again, even though I tried, in between appointments. I didn't think about it until your post, but now I'm wondering if some of those communication difficulties weren't intentional... Oh well. Water under the bridge now.

Reply by ananotary on 11/5/12 8:44am
Msg #442219

Re: Janet- Solution to your month end financial loss

It was just a suggestion that has saved me a ton of grief and lost $$ especially with the "foreigners" that tend to have different last names on their ID's, transposed last names, etc. If I have to leave a message to confirm the appointment I am intentionally vague (foreigner or not) and say that I need to get them scheduled and confirm the details before I am able to book the time. I am especially diligent about this during month end, my "money making" time.

I have a neat network of local notaries and we bounce ideas off of each other. This was one that has worked great!!

Reply by bfnotary on 11/5/12 6:43am
Msg #442214

Re: However I am not in CA, little old PA. Not as specific.

I have just heard people through out the many posts on here how strict CA is on everything. I just thought I would add that part about Pa not being as specific. All it says here in pa is Satisfactory Evidence. It doesn't say they have to match exactly. Not sure what it does say for you guys in CA.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/4/12 7:36pm
Msg #442193

Re: How name appears on ID, or whether ID is expired or not

Sounds good to me, bf. If being a notary required perfect matching, a machine could do it. They would not need us.

Reply by CarolF/NC on 11/4/12 7:00pm
Msg #442186

Re: @Brenda - How name appears on ID, or whether ID is

And your TX notary book and laws address vesting?

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/4/12 7:32pm
Msg #442192

No.

What is your point? I am not being sarcastic. I have no idea where you are going with this.

Reply by CarolF/NC on 11/4/12 6:17pm
Msg #442173

Re: I Agree

I have so many cancelled due to improper ID and I understand all states are different. But why are they not getting copies of DL when they begin the loan process? Here's one for you where the signing was rescheduled 4 times as docs did not come out and when I call and ask about ID the husband has none. No government issued photo ID and they tell me none of the prior notaries even asked about their ID. Luckily I confirmed by phone and did not drive all the way out.

Reply by Pro Mobile Notary on 11/4/12 2:40pm
Msg #442136

It is common practice in CA to simply take the vesting as it currently exists on the preliminary title report and use that as the vesting for the new loan.

If the vesting on the current loan is incorrect, then escrow will likely have to draw a new deed to correct the bad name situation and correct the new DOT or mortgage instrument to the correct legal names. The corrective instrument would take title out of the incorrect name and put it into the correct one.

The LO should have caught the error at several points during the processing of the loan if they were doing their job. When they took the loan app they should have asked the borrowers how they wanted to have their title vested. When escrow is opened the escrow officer (or title or settlement officer) typically sends the preliminary title report to the LO for review. That is yet another time the LO could have caught the error, if they were doing their job.

Escrow likely dropped the ball as well as they should have seen the discrepancy in the preliminary title report and the new docs and questioned the difference. In defense of the escrow officer, they are so swamped with work these days without ample assistance and so we are seeing more errors than normal lately.

I will venture a guess that the LO is working for a bank's lending facility. Big banks have come to the conclusion recently that they can hire people that do not know the business and train them to do the job, but pay them peanuts compared to what skilled LOs make. The do not hire the sharpest pencils in the box and good things are never cheap and cheap things are rarely good.

Reply by Carol Graff on 11/4/12 2:46pm
Msg #442138

Amen! In California, if it does not match, and they do not have a passport or military ID that matches, we need to get 2 credible witnesses. In this case I had to drive about 75 miles RT to get them. Small extra fee for this.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/4/12 3:00pm
Msg #442141

All due respect to you Carol, but IMO this does not

qualify for CW's

CA's CW requirements are very similar to Florida's - if borrowers have current valid photo ID, you cannot use CW's just because the ID doesn't match the docs.

Reply by ToniK on 11/4/12 3:11pm
Msg #442143

Re: All due respect to you Carol, but IMO this does not

She did say on DL was expired

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/4/12 3:16pm
Msg #442144

Still couldn't do it in FL..and I know CA is stricter

has to be "difficult if not impossible" for them to get good ID - not "Oops it expired and I didn't know", or "I haven't had time to go get another one" or "I didn't bother to get it updated" doesn't qualify

And I'd be darned if I'd drive 75 miles to get them...for that I give you kudos, Carol....you're a better person than I am for doing that!!

Reply by LKT/CA on 11/4/12 4:13pm
Msg #442146

I agree with Linda H/FL

"Inconvenience" in getting updated/corrected ID is not a reason to use CWs.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 11/5/12 4:02pm
Msg #442260

Linda H/FL absolutely correct on CW criteria in CA. n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 11/4/12 3:41pm
Msg #442145

Re: All due respect to you Carol, but IMO this does not

In CA "if borrowers have current valid photo ID, you cannot use CW's just because the ID doesn't match the docs"?

I find that hard to believe in the case of the husband, especially in this case.

First, it seems like the husband doesn't want to be known as "III", on the deed or anywhere else. So this is an issue of not wanting to sign the deed as it was drawn, rather than an ID issue.

Second, a person is allowed to carry out transactions under an alias, if there is no deception involved. But it would usually be impossible for the person to get ID under the alias. Thus they would be eligible to use credible witnesses who can swear the person is known by the alias.

Third, can you prove the suffix "III" is part of the name in California? If it isn't part of the name, you don't need ID for it.

But your statement might very well apply to the woman who neglected to renew her ID.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/4/12 4:53pm
Msg #442150

Not responding to Carol, but for those who may read this...

in the future. Carol says,

*Amen! In California, if it does not match, and they do not have a passport or military ID that matches, we need to get 2 credible witnesses. *

Again, this is not a response to Carol, it is my opinion to add balance to the prevailing concept that IDs must match perfectly a set of loan documents.

I have researched this concern for countless hours. I have never read a law in any state that says that names on loan docs and ID must match. If such a law exists, it would be a great favor to me if someone could show it to me.

I am in the minority. I do not believe that it is right or fair to borrowers, signing services, lenders, or title companies to put so much weight on a perfect match between the ID and the loan documents. I have debated this many times and put a lot of time into explaining why I do not agree with the "match" requirement. It is impractical. Women who have purchased and/or sold properties before and after name changes due to marriage or divorce understand why this is impractical.

No matter what state you are in, before discounting an ID that does not have Jr., Sr., or III, when the loan documents do, consult your own notary laws, your notary handbook, and even contact your notary public administrator that commissions notaries in your state so that <<you>> can make an informed decision about the ID process.

At the time of this post, driver licenses do not always have room to add all details of a name. Names on driver licenses and names on loan documents are derived in two different ways--there is no reason for them to have perfect matches.

Notaries want to do their jobs well and they are very concerned about mortgage fraud because there is an organization whose well-being depends on selling the idea that notaries are the gatekeepers against the mortgage fraud crisis. The hype is winning.

The truth is that "mortgage fraud" is a broad term that has been made the burden of notaries through marketing of a certain organization. The marketing techniques use phrases that evoke fear of being a participant in the crime of mortgage fraud. Because of the elevated importance of notary duties that is implied in the marketing materials--that notaries are crime fighters, notaries perhaps feel that they should be out catching thieves, rather than identifying their signers. Rather than assuming that signers are innocent until proven guilty, the opposite is true.

For factual information about the causes of mortgage fraud, see Msg #436507.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 11/4/12 5:14pm
Msg #442154

Re: Not responding to Carol, but for those who may read this...

In the case that started the thread, the non-match was the suffix "III" in the deed, but was not part of the would-be signer's name, in the signer's opinion. So this isn't a matter of two versions of a name, this is a matter of an incorrect suffix, and the way to deal with it is throw it into the lawyer's court.

Hypothetically, if the signer DID use the suffix "III", either at the time the property was acquired or at the time of the signing, but only had ID with no suffix, the question arises, is the suffix part of the name? I have looked into this for three states, Connecticut (where I was born), Texas (where I have relatives and sort of owned property for a month or so) and Vermont, where I live now.

Texas: Smith v. State, 435 SW 2d 526 - Tex: Court of Criminal Appeals 1969, which may be read on Google Scholar at

http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17209401876387309547&q=%22legal+name%22+suffix+-%22.com%22&hl=en&as_sdt=2,46

says the suffix is not part of the name.

Connecticut: The state library library has a name change guide. An older version mentioned a court case where the court stated there was no law in Connecticut about the proper use of suffixes.

Vermont: I attended a notary forum put on by the Secretary of State. The speaker, an attorney and former Deputy Secretary of State, said that is was possible to go to court to get one's suffix changed through the name change process. But there was no time to get a clear answer about whether it was part of the name.

An then there is the case of a person who was born in one state, lives in another, and is signing a document in a third. Which state's law would govern whether the suffix was part of the person's name?

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/4/12 5:30pm
Msg #442156

thanks VT

(1) III - I was not sure if he was or was not a III...I made another post regarding this. Thanks for following up.

(2) The case law that you quoted is one of many that address this issue. I have a quasi-handbook on proper execution of documents written by a Tx attorney from my old days at the law office; it says that middle initials and names are of no serious consequence either (based on case law) and other variations of signatures, too.

I am always hesitant to use information from those cases to make a point because even though they can affect decisions in courts of other states, the responses that will come are, "Well, that's Texas. You must not have to properly ID people there."

Furthermore, citing case law (that anyone with a brain can read) also gets responses of, "Oh! Now that's trying to give legal advice."

It's just not worth it to me to get into it any more. Thanks for doing it.

Reply by HisHughness on 11/4/12 5:28pm
Msg #442155

I agree.

My job as a Texas notary is to identify the signer and to make reasonably sure that the person executing a document is the proper party to execute it. If I have identifed a signer, and he appears to a reasonable certainty to be the person who is supposed to be executing the document, I will notarize it.

It is NOT my job as a notary to do the job of either the loan officer or the escrow officer in matching ID to documents. That apparently has been saddled on the notary because LOs and EOs simply did not want to take or were too lazy to assume the responsibility that is legitimately theirs.

Reply by Buddy Young on 11/4/12 6:42pm
Msg #442179

Re: I agree. n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/4/12 5:35pm
Msg #442157

Terrific post, Brenda!!!

I decided to not go there, but I'm very glad you did, because that was the first issue that popped into my head when I read the original post.

This entire issue of less, not more, and having to have a perfect match, reminds me of a story my dad used to tell that I've repeated many times myself....

A little girl was watching her mother cut off the ends of a roast she was about to put in the oven and she asked her mom why she was doing that. The mother said "I don't know, but my mom always did it that way." Now curious, she called her mom and asked her the same question - and got the same answer. Later that day, they decided to all pay a visit to the little girl's great-grandmother and ask her the same question. She replied "In my little apartment, I had a small oven and a small roasting pan, and that was the only way I could get the roast to fit..."

So just because something has always been done a certain way - or because that's what we've been told to do, doesn't always mean it's the right thing. I don't mean that we should be cavalier about checking IDs, but we need to use some discretion.

And for the record, here's a quote from the California notary Handbook that often get's overlooked, IMO:

"“Satisfactory Evidence” means the ABSENCE of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the individual is not the individual he or she claims to be..." [Caps are mine, for emphasis.] Of course, it then goes on to outline what forms of ID are acceptable, so proper ID IS still required. But I believe this allows for some gray area - and calls for reasonable good judgment on our parts. I also still think we need to be careful about things like name changes, when the ID shows a completely different name than what is on the documents. This will vary greatly from state to state, but here, I have seen some very long names on DLs (including a 2nd line) but that was on the old version. The newer DLs here have a separate line for first and middle names and last name, so they might also allow for longer names. Haven't seen enough of them yet to come to any conclusion - and this, of course, is just for CA.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/4/12 5:41pm
Msg #442159

Re: Terrific post, Brenda!!!

I love the roast beef story. I am going to keep a copy of it so I don't forget it again.

Thanks to you, VT, and Hugh for adding balance with this issue. It's just the other side of the coin and there are so many who are not willing to consider that there is another side of the coin.

(VT - thanks for making it clear that this might be more of a case of wrong name than wrong ID. Message received.)

Reply by jba/fl on 11/4/12 10:35pm
Msg #442210

Re: Terrific post, Brenda!!!

I have a variation of this story. Make substitutions as you see fit.

The girl watched her mother put the dish drainer over the turkey while in the sink thawing. One thanksgiving her mother asked her why she was doing the same thing and the daughter said that she did it because her mom always did. Her mom chuckled and said, "But, we had a cat....that was to keep the cat away from the turkey while it was thawing."

Same LL though: Life Lesson (new term I learned this week-end)

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 11/4/12 8:39pm
Msg #442204

Agree with Brenda. Il law requires that , unless I

personally know the signer or a mutually know CW, then I need to see a valid, state of federal ID with pic anc signature of person signing. NOTHING said about name as stated on ID.
My criteria for a mortgage loan signing is : based on all available information and ID, is this person about to sign the dox the same person who has an interest in the property and to whom the lender intends to loan money.
If I can reasonably make that determination, , I am good and proceed with the signing.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 11/5/12 11:16am
Msg #442231

THANK YOU...

Brenda... you're not the only one who feels that way. But then, I don't make it a secret that I am one who doesn't believe in exact matches, either. Nowhere are we told that names must match exactly... I've always felt that to be a major fallacy. That's one of the reason I write the name on the ID presented to me on the notarial certificate... because I have not one clue that the guy in front of me really *is* the guy named in the document. That's a legal decision for the courts to decide. All I can do is certify the identity of the person in front of me.

Reply by Carol Graff on 11/5/12 7:30pm
Msg #442306

clarification

So if the vesting on the DOT says John James Doe and his license only says John Doe--we can go ahead and notarize if we feel certain he is John Doe?? Truly--just asking as all this time I was under a different assumption.

Reply by MW/VA on 11/5/12 2:34pm
Msg #442252

Yes, Brenda. Your post in 436507 was 5-star! I've

referenced it several times when these fear-based issues come up. I can tell you that I wouldn't be a notary in CA with all the ridiculous things they are required to do.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/4/12 4:32pm
Msg #442147

I'm not quite sure where to begin on this one because the info is a little sketchy, but here goes...

First of all, there's the issue of what you meant by "matching the DOT". You didn't give any info on what the problem was (other than "III"), but that subject has been done to death, so I'm not gonna go there. As for the "III", was this only on the vesting of the DOT or on all the signature lines? If the latter, I imagine a redraw is in order. If not, Howard did a good job of explaining why that happens and why it's not as easy as a LO just deciding to change it, but they could have done a Grant Deed to correct it before drawing the docs. I completely agree with you, though, that lots of grief for lots of people could be avoided if the LO or processor or someone took the time up front to get copies of ID and actually look at them!

For the lady with the expired ID, I agree with Linda that this doesn't qualify for CW's because it wasn't "difficult or impossible" for her to have gotten a current ID and it doesn't make up for them just not having a name that supports what is on the docs. However, we've seen here that there are lots of ways of interpreting what that means. Was it just not a precise match or was there a significant difference? This is an area where we all have to make a judgment call.

I had a similar situation a week ago Friday. (Yes, EOM night.) It was my last appointment of the day since it was 9:00 pm and a very large package. (I had turned down at least 10-12 others.) I started with the ID business as usual and Mr. Borrower shows me his DMV renewal paper that the DMV assured him would be acceptable until he got his replacement ID. NOT! I told him that it's perfectly acceptable as a license to drive, but not for identification in this state. He doesn't have a passport or any of other government issued ID that we might be able to use.

So I look at his DL to see if it's been issued within five years, which would give us another option. Imagine my surprise when I see an DL that *expired* in 2008!! They said the loan got processed much faster than they expected and they thought they'd have the actual DL by then. Turns out Mrs. Borrower works for a mortgage company! (She brought it up.) I asked her if anyone asked for their IDs at any point in the process and she said no.

I called my client, gave them an update and advised that this was not a situation that allowed for CWs - the first thing they suggested - since it clearly wasn't "difficult or impossible" for him to get an ID, he just didn't get around to it, said he didn't realize it had expired. (To their credit, they accepted my decision without further push back.) I gave the BOs plenty of time to mention any possible excuses, e.g. serving overseas (although he was a bit long in the tooth for that), fighting a deadly disease, in a coma, etc. but they didn't say anything (and I didn't ask, not wanting to give them a chance to make up something).

After all the business I had turned down that night, including for several who said they would make it "worth your while", and after printing two copies of a humongous doc package, to say I wasn't happy is a major understatement! I didn't show it to the borrowers, but it was probably a good thing no one was in the car with me on the drive home... (The company I did this one for has sent me tons of business in the past, but they don't pay a full fee for a no-sign, just a print and trip fee. I'll be re-evaluating that relationship...) Also, I think I probably don't want to know how this one got/gets resolved...

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/4/12 4:58pm
Msg #442153

As for the III on the docs, if those were my docs

and that was not my name, I would insist on a redraw.

I cannot tell if the guy just didn't like using III or if he was not a III at all.

Reply by Carol Graff on 11/4/12 6:16pm
Msg #442171

III

Gentleman said the Bank decided to use that to distinguish from his father who they also do business with.
But he clearly said he was not the third. So I had him sign all the docs in the pkg as they all had III, he called Title and I called the next day and they issued a Grant Deed to change it. I felt satisfied he was the person on the loan docs so went ahead with the signing as, of course, it was 5:15 and LO did not answer phone, nor title.

The reason I used CW as lender suggested ---she said she could not get her new DL as she was a teacher and did not have the time that week. I know it's a grey area, but I also felt confident it was her.

Janet, I'm glad you mentioned temp DL because that situation has come up and I was not sure how to proceed. With no picture, I'm assuming we should not notarize? This guy was in a car accident, the police took away his license, he was in the hospital and needed me to notarize a form so his son could get the car out of impound. At times like thiis, I just use my gut, and go with it--really don't think there will be any repurcussions. What else could this guy do?

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/4/12 6:19pm
Msg #442175

Re: III

*I felt satisfied he was the person on the loan docs so went ahead with the signing *

Yay!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/4/12 7:09pm
Msg #442189

Re: III

"This guy was in a car accident, the police took away his license, he was in the hospital..."

All that together sounds to me like the perfect prescription for credible witnesses.

Reply by JerryhFL on 11/4/12 9:34pm
Msg #442207

The use of credible witness's is part of our Florida notary laws.

What if someone forgot to renew their license, it happen to me. Then comes the day of the signing of their loan, they present an expired id. Could it be that it is "difficult or impossible" to get the id in time to sign the loan that day and if so why can't CW's be used?

If we can use reasonable judgement to identify someone, where does this situation deviate from using reasonable judgement and CW.

Reply by sueharke on 11/5/12 4:07pm
Msg #442262

What make notaries think that critical thinking is acceptable for use by us by LO, SS, or Title companies?

Reply by Edward Cooke on 11/4/12 6:58pm
Msg #442184

I had to join to put in my quarter-farthing (was working on getting my Louisiana notary until I had to move to FL to care for elderly grandparent).

There are many cases where the DL won't match the name on the deed. For example, I purchased a home in FL while still holding a La. DL. So the deed shows my first name, middle initial, and last name. However, FL puts FULL names on its DLs. Or when I lived in DE, I used a variant of my full name (which I don't mind putting here since I had it changed): Lucian Edw. Cooke, Jr. (how my house was deeded), however, DE only put first, middle initial, and last on the DL.

The point of this rant: the ID in many cases will NOT match the name on the deed. In fact in Louisiana getting married does not change the name of either party yet I've seen where the loan co. has assumed that one or both did upon marriage.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/4/12 7:29pm
Msg #442191

Edward Cooke, thank you for this.

Thank you, thank you. I feel like finally someone else (besides a handful of us) gets it.

It is not right that people should run get new IDs for every transaction of this type.

Reply by Edward Cooke on 11/4/12 11:20pm
Msg #442212

Re: Edward Cooke, thank you for this.

To follow up, Louisiana would drive notaries from Ca. and Fl. crazy because by law full Christian names must be used in all acts involving immovables (real estate). So if a Kathy Diane Adams who marries a James Underwood then Kathy Adams Underwood would not be acceptable on any document. However, Kathy Diane Underwood or Kathy Diane Adams Underwood would. But in 99% of all cases I would suspect her ID (DL) would be Kathy Adams Underwood.

(I can't wait to move back to La. and take the notary course again and finally start working. Of course the pass rate is only about 12% for those taking it the first time.)

Reply by TeriW/CA on 11/5/12 11:51am
Msg #442238

Re: Edward Cooke, thank you for this.

Fl might require you use your full Christian name, but Ca doesn't.

Reply by jba/fl on 11/4/12 10:37pm
Msg #442211

It all comes down to a healthy dose of common sense.

Reasonable, absence of anything to give pause....

Reply by LynnNC on 11/5/12 11:46am
Msg #442237

I don't require an exact match, but want sufficient government issued photo ID to feel comfortable that the person before me is the person named on the docs If there is an AKA/Name Aff in the package, I cover the different names on it.

The name that I use in the notarial language is the name on the ID.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/5/12 1:42pm
Msg #442248

Huh?

No one ever ruled that names on IDs have to exactly match names on docs .. thank gawd.

However, if you're going to assume that the guy in front of you is the guy named in the document (which we all do; why else would we be there?) but the names don't match, then it's "cheating" to use the name on the ID in the notarial section. We are doing a job for the lender, and the lender wants to know that Jerry Jones is signing the docs intended for Jerry Jones and does not want to see that Jerry R. Jones (the name on the ID) signed the docs. Now, the notary has returned docs to the lender with Jerry R. Jones printed in the notarial certificate when the lender wanted Jerry Jones. "Who's this Jerry R. Jones guy," the lender might ask. "I sent the notary to get Jerry Jones to sign these docs and now I see Jerry R. Jones signed!" You cannot respond: "Hey, I ID'd Jerry R. Jones, that's the best I could do. Not my business you printed Jerry Jones on the docs. I have no way of knowing that Jerry R Jones is really Jerry Jones or vice verse."
It's disingenuous to say we have "no clue" that the guy in front of us really *is* the guy named in the document. You cannot separate the two based on the notion that your job is only to ID the person in front of you with no regard to the name on the docs. By ignoring the name on the docs in favor of the name on the ID, then I think you're not doing the job we were hired to do. That the names might happen to actually match some day would be pure coincidence.
I am NOT saying the name on the ID and the name on the docs must match. Far from it. But the name on the docs and the name in your notarial certificate must match. No matter what the name of the docs might be and no matter what the name on the ID might be, and no matter how the person signs, as a loan signer, you are sayng that the person signing is the person named on the docs (not just some random person who appeared before you with a similar name). Why else are you there? You cannot say, "Hey, I ID'd so and so, and if so and so is actually the guy named in the docs, well, then this is my lucky day." Just sayin' you can't have it both ways.

Reply by LKT/CA on 11/5/12 3:12pm
Msg #442255

Re: Huh?

<<<It's disingenuous to say we have "no clue" that the guy in front of us really *is* the guy named in the document. You cannot separate the two based on the notion that your job is only to ID the person in front of you with no regard to the name on the docs. By ignoring the name on the docs in favor of the name on the ID, then I think you're not doing the job we were hired to do............ But the name on the docs and the name in your notarial certificate must match. No matter what the name of the docs might be and no matter what the name on the ID might be, and no matter how the person signs, as a loan signer, you are sayng that the person signing is the person named on the docs (not just some random person who appeared before you with a similar name). Why else are you there? You cannot say, "Hey, I ID'd so and so, and if so and so is actually the guy named in the docs, well, then this is my lucky day." Just sayin' you can't have it both ways.>>>

50 Stars and a chocolate cake!!! THANK YOU for how you stated this. The next conversation about names matching on ID and docs, I will resurrect this post.

Reply by HisHughness on 11/5/12 4:57pm
Msg #442276

Re: Huh?

***But the name on the docs and the name in your notarial certificate must match ... By ignoring the name on the docs in favor of the name on the ID, then I think you're not doing the job we were hired to do. ***

Sez what?

I am there to ID the borrower. When I have satisfied myself to a reasonable certainty that the borrower is the person named in the document to be executed, then I can notarize. If the lender does not wish to accept that determination by me as a notary, he can demand more of me in my role as a signing agent; it is, after all, his money. But because a lender chooses to be anal about ID does not mean I have not done MY job. If he wants to hire me to go beyond that, that's fine; depending on what is required, he may or may not be charged extra for his anality.

I find it irksome that you would presume to tell me I have not performed competently when nothing, absolutely nothing, absent explicit instructions from a lender or title company, requires me to go beyond what I have stated above.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/5/12 5:29pm
Msg #442289

Au contraire

Even though the OP was about matching names on IDs to names on docs (which I'm not getting into), there were a few responses where notaries said the name they put on the notarial certificate is the name on the ID, whether it matches the signature line or not. (Adding they have "no clue" if the person in front of them is actually the person named in the document.)
I contend an NSA cannot just ID the person in front of them and then say that’s the end of it. The lender is expecting you to make a connection between the signer and the person listed on the docs. The person in front of you and the person on the sig line are not two distinct individuals. You cannot say to a lender that you are resposible only for ID’ing the person who appeared before you and that you are not responsible if the name on the docs is different than the name on your notarial certificate.

I don’t care how you ID the signer, I don’t care what your state laws ID are, or what judgment or common sense you used or didn’t use to ID a signer, or how much absence of information might have led you to believe you did or did not have the right person, etc. etc. How you determine all that is totally up to you. But when the rubber hits the road, your notarial certificate should reflect the name that’s printed on the docs. Otherwise you are not notarizing the signature of the person the lender expected to sign. You’re notarizing the signature of the person who happened to appear before you. Two separate people. Not good enough.
It is our responsibilty to be as sure as possible that the person appearing before us is the person the lender intended to sign the docs. And you provide that assurance or proof by entering the name of the signer on your notarial certificate exactly as it is printed on the docs, not another name belonging to someone who may or may not be the person named in the docs.

Reply by HisHughness on 11/5/12 5:40pm
Msg #442293

Re: Au contraire

You are quite adept at declaring GG's Rule of Law. And if it works for you, have at it. What you are not adept at is saddling the rest of us with GG's Rule of Law. I'll stick with what my state requires of me as a notary public, thank you. And, as I stated, if a lender or title company wishes me to go beyond that as a signing agent, I'll be happy to accomodate them as long as they accomodate my financial demands.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/5/12 6:12pm
Msg #442299

Re: Au contraire

It's not clear to me why you keep bringing up money. It is virtually cost-free for you to write (for example) the name "Betty Boop" in your notarial certificate to match the name "Betty Boop" as it appears on the loan docs, despite the fact that her ID reads "Betty Regario Boop II" or whatever.

Why would you expect extra financial accommodations to do this?

Reply by Rachel/AL on 1/14/13 10:30pm
Msg #450452

Re: Huh?

The current NNA news letter covers this. We are to put the name on the ID, which we are identifying him by in the notarial wording. That ID is the only name we can prove he is who he says he is. This is an issue with all Notaries. The lender needs to see their ID before they draw up the documents. Make sure the AKA covers it. If the lender wants to change the name on the docs they can with the limited fPOA in the package. I don't want to be sued and lose my Notary over pleasing the lenders. That's what alot of Notaries are in trouble for now!

Reply by Barb25 on 11/5/12 9:08pm
Msg #442314

If the ID is different than the docs... assuming that we are not talking about a different name all together of course.... But a variation. The driver license name would go in the a/k/a ...

Most signature affidavits I have seen are for the purpose of stating that the name on the DOT/Mortgage is your legal name and that his your signature.

It is an affidavit... sworn to... think about the purpose of affidavits. duh.

Short of DNA testing at the signing, it isn't going to get much better.

Reply by AngelaV/CA on 11/5/12 5:38pm
Msg #442291

I agree with Marian/CA. My notarial certificate will match the identification, or less than what is proven, not more. (e.g. If the I.D. shows Christopher Roy Kelly, I will notarize with his full name, or just Chris Kelly, but Not Sr. or the III, since it is not on the ID & could be his father or son) The CA notary Public Handbook specifically states it "is designed to supplement your course of study...." This is how my approved courses of study said to do it, and it makes sense to me. Ultimately, I am responsible for the validity of my notarization and the consequences for its incorrectness. Therefore, I will be the final say on how I may best serve the public, while remaining within the laws of my state.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/5/12 6:47pm
Msg #442304

In this case Marian wrote: "That's one of the reason I write the name on the ID presented to me on the notarial certificate... because I have not one clue that the guy in front of me really *is* the guy named in the document. " So you can certainly agree with her if you want.

I prefer to provide the lender with at least some assurance that the person whose signature I am notarizing is indeed the person named in the docs. And the only way (beyond the basic ID procedure) I know of is to write the name of the person as it appears on the docs in my notarial certificate.

Reply by Art_MD on 11/5/12 7:37pm
Msg #442307

Though not in MD any more (florida), Maryland required that the notary be satisfied that the person is who they say they are. To the extent that you would accept a large check from them.

Had one case where the borrower had to get copty of insurance papers.
On the wall was a picture of him with George W Bush. There was a letter on white house stationary below the picture.
They was a picture of him with Bill Clinton, also the same type letter.
There was a picture of him with George H Bush, again a letter.

Each letter was signed by the president, and said (paraphrasing) Thanks XXXXXX for serving on the 5th circuit court of appeals during my administration.

If the borrower couldn't find his ID, I would have been satisfied with 3 hand written letters from 3 presidents.

Reply by linda/ca on 11/6/12 2:50am
Msg #442319

Re: GOLDGIRL/CA is correct for California!

AngelaV/CA you say you agree with Marian, however, what you wrote is not what Marian wrote. Your assessment seems to be more aligned with GOLDGIRL/CA who is spot on with her assessment.

Reply by Barb25 on 11/5/12 8:53pm
Msg #442313

And yet the State itself (atleast in FL) allows the

the notary to be commissioned using only part of their legal (or ID) name. Why is that? What could they be thinking?

Mary Anne Jones Smith

be commissioned

Mary Smith

Mary Jones

and so on!

That seems strange, don't you think.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 11/7/12 6:36am
Msg #442471

Re: And yet the State itself (atleast in FL) allows the

What's even more fun is that some states explicitly allow a notary who changes his/her name during the course of a commission to keep using the old name for notarizations until the commission expires.

Reply by LKT/CA on 11/5/12 9:25pm
Msg #442316

In response to those who believe only ID'ing the signer matters, and "oh, phooey" to the name in the doc:

The CA handbook states that a credible witness must (on oath) state that the person signing the doc is the person NAMED in the doc. I'm fairly certain that the CW statement (on oath) is a REFLECTION of the whole point of notarizing - that the person signing the doc is the person NAMED in the doc, thus the person being ID'd. Otherwise, what's the point? Consider that a notary's signature and seal are on a certificate attached to the DOCUMENT, not attached to the signer's ID. The name in the doc, while not necessarily an exact match to the ID, DOES matter, IMHO. I share Goldgirl's view on this topic.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/6/12 6:54am
Msg #442327

I review the ID and decide if the person is the right person. I write the exact name as stated in docs on the certificate. If the ID presented is valid, but does not match, I use my head and decided if it is the right person. If I do not believe so, then it is because I suspect a crime and will treat this person and situation as such. IMHO, one cannot have it both ways...they either are the right folks, or they are not. The lenders have seen the ID a long time before notaries have.

If the name in the cert is a little bit off from the documents, that is not a deal breaker for lenders or recorders.

Marian has a different approach that is working fine for her. I don't see any problem with it if the lenders do not.

Note: No matter what notaries hope to achieve by the ID process, the ID of a signer is only as good as the signer's honesty.

We witness the signature of the person in front of us. We have ID'd them. We have done our job if the lender accepts what we put on the cert.

Signers can provide fake IDs and dupe everyone. It's not the notary's job to be the only gate against crime. 99.9% of fraud apparently happens before notaries ever see documents (fact).

Seems like everyone but the XYZ has caught on to this.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/6/12 6:54am
Msg #442328

ps - not in response to Lisa, but to the general discussion n/m

Reply by linda/ca on 11/7/12 2:58am
Msg #442465

Re: ps - not in response to Lisa, but to the general discussion

Glad you clarified that, BrendaTx, I thought I might have read your post incorrectly as that did not seem to be the thought process you would have. Couldn't imagine you would come to that conclusion.