Posted by Karla/WA on 11/8/12 10:12am
Msg #442601

Rescission Day

It looks like the NR rescission calendar is incorrect. Monday is Veterans Day so if we are signing loans today, the rescission date is 11/13/12.

Please validate!

Reply by CopperheadVA on 11/8/12 10:14am
Msg #442602

See Msg #442364

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 11/8/12 6:17pm
Msg #442684

3 lenders I know of not counting Monday n/m

Reply by JPH13/MO on 11/8/12 10:15am
Msg #442603

Some are saying you are correct, while others are saying it falls on Sunday and is just being observed on Monday making their calendar correct, so I will just go by what shows on the NRTC unless it is neither day!

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/8/12 10:37am
Msg #442606

I would check with hiring party and only rely on what they

tell me - as was said, too many interpretations - let the boss make the call

Reply by MW/VA on 11/8/12 11:20am
Msg #442615

RTC dates are almost always on the docs. Some are counting

and some aren't.

Reply by Alan Jorgensen on 11/8/12 11:27am
Msg #442617

I'm in Calif and read the links and NNA information and determined it to be Monday. I do have a signing today and just to be sure I called the service and they contacted the loan people and verified Monday. To be safe if you are signing today, call the service or loan people to confirm it. I made a note of my conversation on the back of my invoice confirmation.

Reply by MW/VA on 11/8/12 11:34am
Msg #442619

Many of us have learned not to trust the info published

by that organization.

Reply by SReis on 11/8/12 1:16pm
Msg #442630

servicelink rep told me to change rtc date to the 13th

Even though docs had it printed for the 12th. Don't question just follow instructions. I would call and verify if it is printed for the 12th just to be safe.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 11/8/12 1:39pm
Msg #442632

I am going to go with whatever RTC date the lender has already preprinted on their document that they prepared.

If the line is blank, I would get written instructions for what date to put in there.

Reply by HisHughness on 11/8/12 2:12pm
Msg #442635

We have had this discussion on NotRot before.

Only the actual holiday will impact the RTC; the <observance> does not. Holiday falls on a Monday, the rescission date is moved to Tuesday. Holiday falls on Sunday and holiday is observed on Monday, the rescission date does not move.

A lender, of course, always retains the option to extend but not shorten the rescission period.

Glad I could help. Please leave generous tips in the jar.

Reply by 101livescan on 11/8/12 2:18pm
Msg #442636

Monday November 12th is Veteran’s Day. It is NOT counted when calculating your rescission date for all files with a Right To Cancel.



This will affect all files that sign beginning today through Sunday. The correct dates for executing the RTC are as follows…


Signing Date Right To Cancel Date

11/08/2012 11/13/2012

11/09/2012 11/14/2012

11/10/2012 11/15/2012

11/11/2012 11/15/2012

11/12/2012 11/15/2012

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/8/12 2:20pm
Msg #442637

That's not correct Cheryl. Everything I've seen

is counting Monday as a normal business day since the holiday is Sunday - that would include Chicago Title's website, among others.

Reply by 101livescan on 11/8/12 2:31pm
Msg #442639

Re: That's not correct Cheryl. Everything I've seen

Got this from my title source, I'll inquire.

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 11/8/12 2:35pm
Msg #442640

If USPS is not working (besides Sunday), it doesn't count

That is generally the best way to know. They are not working Monday. I'm doing 3 signings with 3 different Escrow companies. All said Monday is holiday for RTC.

Reply by 101livescan on 11/8/12 2:47pm
Msg #442648

Re: If USPS is not working (besides Sunday), it doesn't count

Banks are closed in CA on Monday. So, Sunday/Monday don't count.

Reply by HisHughness on 11/8/12 2:58pm
Msg #442649

Are you folks not capable of reading the law?

Forget about the extensive discussion we have had on NotRot about this very subject; just read the law.

An OBSERVED holiday does not impact the RTC in any way. ONLY the actual holiday will. Nov. 11 is Veteran's Day; Nov. 12 IS NOT; it is an OBSERVED holiday. It doesn't matter whether the banks are open distributing $2 bills, the Post Office is delivering second-class mail, or 7/Eleven is open and selling rolling papers. What matters is the date of the ACTUAL holiday.

Why would you insist upon complicating something that is so simple? And why on earth would you rely upon some yahoo at a title company who has never actually read the law, rather than an infallible Fount of All Wisdom such as me?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 11/8/12 3:01pm
Msg #442651

Well Hugh - that's what I thought..but then there's this

http://www.bankersonline.com/tools/bizdaychart.pdf

scroll down on this chart..

"Business day means a calendar day other than a Saturday or a Sunday, January 1, the third Monday in January, the third Monday in February, the last Monday in May, July 4, the first Monday in September, the second Monday in October, November 11, the fourth Thursday in November, or December 25. If January 1, July 4, November 11, or December 25 fall on a Sunday, the next Monday is not a business day."

Based on this, Monday may be the holiday after all. My apologies if this is the case.

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 11/8/12 3:03pm
Msg #442652

Re: Are you folks not capable of reading the law?

Hugh, I think you would agree that reading the law, understanding it, and following it are three different things. ha ha ha. There is a spirit of the law also and I guess that is what I'm going by. I've only been doing it this way for the past 18 years and it has never been an issue.

Reply by 101livescan on 11/8/12 4:02pm
Msg #442660

Re: Are you folks not capable of reading the law?

Why, sir, thank you for straightening us all out!

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 11/8/12 3:00pm
Msg #442650

Best to check with who hired you

But yes, that is what I'm saying. Monday is not considered a business day because holiday is being observed that day.

Reply by MikeC/TX on 11/8/12 4:57pm
Msg #442668

Incorrect

We have this discussion here every single time a Federal Holiday falls on a Sunday. I'm sure if you search the older messages, you'll find that PAW gave the definitive answer years ago - and yet it still comes up.

There is a distinction between the date of a Federal holiday and when it is observed. A federal Holiday that falls on a Sunday is observed for the purposes of federal employee time off on the Monday following. This has nothing to do with rescission, which ONLY goes by the date of the holiday for those that have specific dates (Christmas, New Year's Day, Independence Day, and Veteran's Day). Those 4 holidays may be OBSERVED on a different day due to the weekend, but they always FALL on the date specified - and per Reg Z, THAT is the date to consider when calculating the minimum rescission period.

Reg Z states that a lender must allow AT LEAST 3 business days for rescission, but may allow more at the lender's discretion. They could make it 30 or 60 days if they wanted to, it just can't be less than 3 business days. The fact that some banks and title companies will be closed on Monday is irrelevant as far as the minimum rescission period is concerned - it IS a business day under Reg Z.

If the RTC you get adds a day, the BO got a little gift from their lender. If the RTC shows Monday as the final day, there's no reason to question it - the lender is doing exactly what Reg Z requires them to do. The only time to question it is if the RTC date is blank, and the question should be whether or not they're counting Monday in their calculation. I suspect most probably will, but they are not required to do so.

Regarding the OP's comments about NR's rescission calendar - it's correct, Harry and staff know what they're doing; what you are seeing is when the minimum rescission period ends legally - lenders can extend it, but they can't shorten it. You really don't need to use a rescission calendar, just understand how it works, know what the Federal holidays are, and be able to count to three...

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/8/12 5:03pm
Msg #442670

Well said, Mike! Excellent summation. n/m

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 11/8/12 5:50pm
Msg #442677

Re: Well said, Mike! Excellent summation.

"i" before "e," except after "c" . . .

Fall backward, Spring forward . . . and now

Reg Z before FRB (amazing!)

Reply by MikeC/TX on 11/8/12 6:22pm
Msg #442685

Re: Well said, Mike! Excellent summation.

"Reg Z before FRB (amazing!)"

When the Fed is open for business has absolutely ZERO to do with the rescission requirements in Reg Z - a fact that someone who claims 20 years of experience in this business would know.

Reply by bagger on 11/9/12 6:09am
Msg #442725

Veteran's day IS 11/11.

We are "observing" it this year on 11/12"
Hugh is correct.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 11/8/12 3:09pm
Msg #442655

Here's the actual quote from re: Reg. Z from the source linked in Renee's post:

"2. Rescission rule. A more precise rule for what is a business day (all calendar days except
Sundays and the federal legal holidays listed in 5 U.S.C. 6103(a)) applies when the right of rescission
or mortgages subject to Sec. 226.32 are involved. (See also comment 31(c)(1)-1.) Four federal legal
holidays are identified in 5 U.S.C. 6103(a) by a specific date: New Year's Day, January 1;
Independence Day, July 4; Veterans Day, November 11; and Christmas Day, December 25. When
one of these holidays (July 4, for example) falls on a Saturday, federal offices and other entities
might observe the holiday on the preceding Friday (July 3). The observed holiday (in the example,
July 3) is a business day for purposes of rescission or the delivery of disclosures for certain high-cost
mortgages covered by Sec. 226.32."

Since Veteran's Day is one of the four legal holidays "specified by a specific date", it seems to me that the "observed day", i.e. Monday, would NOT be excluded from the count of rescission days. This is consistent with the rescission calendar printed on this site.

HOWEVER, I will also go with what is printed on lender docs, but if I have to correct one, I'll try to confirm with lender/client first.

BTW, I just now heard from one of my favorite clients that most lenders aren't counting Monday. So far, they've confirmed with WF, BofA, and Stearns Lending that they will not be counting Monday. If anyone hears of any other lenders not counting it, please let us know.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 11/8/12 3:31pm
Msg #442659

Federal Reserve closes on Holidays (& Sun.). Period. n/m

Reply by MikeC/TX on 11/8/12 6:16pm
Msg #442682

What does that have to do with anything???

Reg Z is very clear about rescission - as Hugh said, just read the law. This is not rocket surgery...

Or, you can insist on your own mistaken interpretation and do whatever you want to do, possibly creating problems for yourself and the borrower.

A suggestion - do NOT call your client and tell them they have the wrong date on the RTC. At best, they might question your knowledge; at worst, that might be the last conversation you ever have with them...

The ONLY time you should question the RTC date in a situation like this is when there is no date on the RTC, and that question should simply be whether they're counting the observed holiday (which question basically comes down to "Do I count to 3 or 4?").

Their call - not yours.

Reply by HisHughness on 11/8/12 6:26pm
Msg #442686

Re: Federal Reserve closes on Holidays (& Sun.). Period.

Seventh Day Adventist Churchs also close on Sundays. That closure has as much effect on the rescission date under Reg Z as the Federal Reserve closing on Monday does.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 11/8/12 11:54pm
Msg #442720

Re: Federal Reserve closes on Holidays (& Sun.). Period.

You're right. FRB has nothing to do with Rescission dates. Holidays do.
So, after all this "discussion," isn't it just about what's considered a "business day?"
I don't think you need 20 yrs experience in the banking industry (or a claimant to it)
to just count 3 bus days - as was plainly stated. Of course, I'd never want to think that hard.
Whatever's on the docs, I for one will NOT question. Much better Fish to Fry, IMO

Reply by MW/VA on 11/8/12 8:49pm
Msg #442704

I did a signing today (the 8th) and they did exclude Mon.,

with the 3 days being Friday, Saturday, Tuesday. I think it will vary at the cos. discretion. Let's try to remember, it has to be a minimum of 3 days, but they can do more than that if they choose to.

Reply by Salvador Avalos on 11/9/12 2:03am
Msg #442723

Re: I did a signing today (the 8th) and they did exclude Mon.,

I did a few for BofA and the RTC Date pre printed was for Monday 11/12/2012. Other banks had it listed for the 13th. Eitherway I followed the instructions given by the party who hired me.

Reply by CentralNY on 11/9/12 4:33am
Msg #442724

the 2 i did yesterday had 11/12 n/m