Posted by Art_PA on 11/22/12 9:56am
Msg #444353

Vendor Management Co Requiring Purchase of Equipment

My $.02: There is a giant difference between expecting notaries to have the ability to receive & download documents, and to be able to print on legal & letter paper, in short, having the capability to do the job, and requiring the purchase of expensive software. If a company requires its vendors to have Adobe Reader, it can license the product for its vendors.

Years ago a company required vendors to use a certain service to receive internet orders (in lieu of calls) & to pay for each order through that service. This lasted a month or so until the company realized it was not working.

Years ago another company required notaries to have and to take a fax machine to closings so that HUDs could be received at the table. It even reimbursed part of the cost of the machine. That actually worked if the borrower had a phone jack. That company is long gone.

The point is that some person working for companies comes up with all sorts of ideas, most of which don't work , or at best are unworkable or useless. When that person moves on, the idea or concept is forgotten.

There is no guarantee that having purchased Adobe that you will get any more orders from SL, or that SL will continue to require docs to be sent that way, or that some other software company will not sell SL a different "better" propriatary software that it will then sell to its vendors.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 11/22/12 10:16am
Msg #444356

You got that right! n/m

Reply by 101livescan on 11/22/12 10:16am
Msg #444357

The order demand must be overwhelming. I'm getting LOW BALL requests via email on my phone, auto phone messages asking me to accept or decline, just unbelievable how this industry has changed in 12 years. Before Smartphones, how did we function? Just took a longer span of time to get things closed. Now lenders do fax fundings. Nothing these vendors come up surprises me, and yet again....who knows what they're congering...

Think about all that we do now that is over and above what we were responsible for with overnight documents initially. If it's investment property or second home, funding is immediate after faxbacks.

Last minute huds, disclosures that should have been signed within 72 hours of rate lock, tax returns, LOEs, copy of appraisal to give to borrower at the table, trust certificates, and any other prior to funding conditions the lender comes up with that is sent to the NSA to get done. WAY different Pretty much we're mobile electronic technicians expected to pull rabbits from our hats at the table.

Settlement agencies are climbing all over each other trying to out do other agencies so they can garner and hold the BIG accounts. And guess what, we're the guinea pigs. Like spaghetti, some strings stick on the wall, others fall to the floor. WHAT'S NEXT, well, wait and see!

It's a job description that changes in a nano second...remember the days when we interviewed for jobs and would ask for job description and scope of duties, and could actually expect that would be the job. Aint been that way in 25 years. No going back. Now it's: must be team player, do whatever it takes to get the job done, "and other duties as assigned."

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 11/22/12 10:23am
Msg #444358

Happy playing for my own team, thank you very much!

Yesterday, I did a signing where a phone closer takes the borrowers through the non-notarized documents.That took me an extra 1/2 hour. I could have done the whole signing in an hour rather than an hour and a half!

Reply by Frank/NC on 11/22/12 11:09am
Msg #444364

Once again, there is an easy fix. Don't buy it and don't do business with the company asking you to buy it. Of course, they may not call you for work but what do you care. Companies are just tripping over one another trying to give you work.

Reply by Pro Mobile Notary on 11/22/12 12:06pm
Msg #444367

I am no lawyer, but I do not believe that they can legally mandate you use a specific software to password protect documents you email to them. It is equally stupid that they allow faxing as faxes can be intercepted just as easily or easier.

Did you know if you go to a copy store to fax documents that the documents are first scanned and then put on a hard drive within the copy machine. After the document has been faxed to its destination the document remains stored on the hard drive. The same is true for documents that you copy on any large office (large not home versions) size copy machine.

If their objective is secure the documents in order to beŽin compliance with new rules governing the protection of consumer date there are many FREE solutions to encryption for all computer platforms: http://www.truecrypt.org/

BTW- Are they encrypting the docs they send to you?

Reply by Pro Mobile Notary on 11/22/12 12:08pm
Msg #444368

I meant to type THEY CANNOT MANDATE what software to use n/m

Reply by HisHughness on 11/22/12 9:53pm
Msg #444386

Re: I meant to type THEY CANNOT MANDATE what software to use

Certainly they can mandate the type of software used, if they deem it the most efficacious for what they are attempting to achieve. Where do you folks get the idea they can't?

If you don't want to meet their requirements, don't work for them, but you're certainly not in any position to force your choices on them, It's call the "free market": You don't like the requirements they impose on you, you don't work for them; they don't like your refusal to meet their requirements, they don't hire you.

I'm really puzzled by why this is such a big deal.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 11/22/12 10:53pm
Msg #444393

Re: I meant to type THEY CANNOT MANDATE what software to use

Sure they can absolutely mandate the specific brand of software. But in doing so they start demanding behavioral and financial control of their workers, which means that the relationship of the worker is no longer one of an independent contractor but of an employee. That, Hugh, is the difference. These signing companies are getting all of the benefits of an employee by bossing them around without the responsibility of carrying worker's comp insurance, paying taxes, etc.

If you think the IRS doesn't pay attention to these things... think again. They do.

As I noted yesterday:

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Independent-Contractor-Defined

and

http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Behavioral-Control

Reply by HisHughness on 11/22/12 11:36pm
Msg #444394

Re: I meant to type THEY CANNOT MANDATE what software to use

You can continue to rely upon your interpretation, but it will be at your peril.

For about 15 years, I was a part-time "consultant" for a company that scored academic exams such as the ACT and the SAT, along with achievement tests for public schools, qualification exams for teachers in various specialties (I evaluated journalism exams), and such. Like most of my fellow "consultants," we were not there for the money. It was just the most engaged, erudite large group of people I have ever been a part of.

We were told when to report, where to report, where to sit, what parameters were to be used to score essays, when to eat, even the type of pencil to use. And we were classified as independent contractors.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 11/23/12 1:02am
Msg #444396

Re: I meant to type THEY CANNOT MANDATE what software to use

Just because you were "classified" that way didn't mean it was right. Companies routinely do this in order to avoid paying Social Security Taxes, Medicare Taxes, Unemployment Insurance Taxes, as well as Worker's Compensation Insurance. Hiring employees is expensive. Most employees don't realize that the base wage they earn is, in reality, only about 70% (or less) of the total cost of having an them on staff.

I've had direct experience with this with the IRS. Just because a company call you an independent contractor doesn't mean you "are" one, nor should you be treated like one. They just got away with it because they weren't caught.

Just because companies get away with it doesn't mean it's right. What usually happens is an individual figures out the problem and if they can't get their employer to make it right, they contact the IRS to make the determination for them.

I work for a company right now where I only do a handful of assignments a year... but they recently switched over to employee-based providers, very much in part because of IRS regulation that determined what they were asking their people to do (fill out forms and taking photos) was not an independent contractor relationship. I suspect it's because they were audited and got caught, or one of their contractors was audited and the auditor questioned the 1099.

Feel free to disagree with me all you wish... it's the IRS who says it's true.

All it will take is one or two people to file the SS-8 form with the IRS about specific companies and then you'll see how fast the industry starts changing. It's just that nobody really wants to do it. I just choose not to work for those companies anymore unless they put me on payroll. That's the whole point about being independent... we're INDEPENDENT. We can help companies achieve their goals, but we are not their employees nor should we be cheap substitutes for employees.

Reply by HisHughness on 11/23/12 2:09am
Msg #444399

Re: I meant to type THEY CANNOT MANDATE what software to use

You are correct: We should have been classified as employees.

You are incorrect in indicating that IRS would have a consuming interest in setting it right. The agency did not on the occasions when it was brought to their attention.

Every experience I have in both government and private enterprise also tells me that you are quite incorrect in believing that what is required of us, including the use of preferred software by clients, renders us employees. There are insufficient points of control to rachet us into the employee category. And I think if you tried to sell that to IRS, all you would elicit would be one enormous yawn.

And I repeat my original assertion: If you don't wish to meet the requirements of a hiring party don't accept assignments from them. That's no-brainer.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 11/23/12 3:35am
Msg #444402

Re: I meant to type THEY CANNOT MANDATE what software to use

"And I repeat my original assertion: If you don't wish to meet the requirements of a hiring party don't accept assignments from them. That's no-brainer."

Personally, I don't. But then... I also already have the software they talk about. Not because they want me to... but I use it for my other business. But also because I've been using Adobe software (the entire creative suite) and encrypting files for 10+ years. I find it astonishing that some companies are only now getting around to encrypting the PDF files before emailing them back and forth.



As for the misclassification thing. It's not something that happens instantly, and sometimes it's at the discretion of an auditor or depends on parts of a whole situation, but it does happen. For a long time, though, the 70's I think (and I might be entirely off on this without researching it) they were (are?) actually prohibited from from issuing rulings guidelines about it.. It happens, I believe, when individuals file the paperwork claiming Social Security and Medicare Taxes on their income. It's *those* inquiries (form SS8) that might lead to an audit. - and THAT's where the trouble happens. The auditor then sees the discrepancies and finds the company should have been doing this or that or failed to pay this or that.


See the press releases from the Dept of Labor... they are looking in to it as well:

http://www.dol.gov/whd/workers/misclassification/pressrelease.htm


The reality is that companies use the 1099 provision in order to save money. It's illegal. Some of them know it's illegal, some of them don't. This is a link one of my accounting friends sent me. It's deals with California (since that's where we both are) but you get the the drift. You're not just dealing with federal issues, either, it's a state issue as well.

http://www.accountingtoday.com/news/Misclassifying-Workers-Independent-Contractors-Penalty-61265-1.html


When you have these signing services, for example begin to dictate to you things like : 1) The exact time to show up 2) what to wear 3) not to call the borrower 4) call immediately when you 1 - get to the appointment 2 - finish the signing 3- drop the docs or 4 - stop to use the restroom 5) don't bring your kids, pets, spouse or plant, 6)... and so on... that's all good and fine, but that's not how you treat an independent contractor. That's how you treat an employee.

Personally, I choose not to work for those companies anymore because I'm not their employee and I won't be treated as one if I don't get the protection or benefits of one, especially in a state such as California and all of their crazy labor laws). If they want to me their employee, hey... I'm open to that... but that won't likely happen. Therefore, I assert my right as an independent contractor to do as I please. I'll help get the job done.... no problem there. I just won't be told how and when. Outside of the usual industry practices of course... but I have my own methods and as an independent contractor, I have the right to use them.

Reply by Paragon Signing Service - Dave on 11/22/12 1:55pm
Msg #444374

I have never had to pay for 'Adobe' software.

Reply by jnew on 11/22/12 10:09pm
Msg #444388

When you referred to Adobe Reader were you meaning to say Adobe Acrobat. I know that the reader is free software. You can not encrypt with the reader. You would need Acrobat or the many cheaper alternatives to Acrobat to encrypt. They all use the PDF standard format, so I would imagine the VMC would be okay with that.

Reply by BobtheElder on 11/23/12 11:24am
Msg #444420

I've used a cheaper PDF program for years to password-protect documents, though not to "Encrypt" them... never heard of that in a pdf

Reply by ArtG/KS on 11/23/12 5:56pm
Msg #444455

Yes you can use a cheaper PDF writer and then you can encrypt it. I will not explain the process here. An example of a free PDF writer would be 'Cutewriter'. As for the independant contractor vs employee discussion. I would sure have a h--- of a lot of bosses if I were designated an employee. I set my operating policies and procedures, not those I do work for. I agree with Hugness' statment on this.