Posted by notarydi/CA on 11/26/12 11:03pm
Msg #444685

just when I think I've seen it all.....

borrower spells name Fred. I.D. is Fred. Docs are drawn as Fred. Signs Phred. Signature on I.D. is Phred. Signature is very legible. Insists on signing Phred. Went with signing docs as Phred. Names/nationalities have been changed for anonymity sake, but you get the phonetics of it.....Can't wait to hear what the lender says.....

Reply by HisHughness on 11/27/12 12:17am
Msg #444687

Phrankly, I don't know what I would have done. n/m

Reply by Julie/MI on 11/27/12 8:33am
Msg #444713

I just had a guy use Roman numeral for 11 last week....

that was a first too. Wonder if they will fly.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 11/27/12 9:35am
Msg #444720

Re: I just had a guy use Roman numeral for 11 last week....

Roman numerals for the month is common in Europe.

Reply by bagger on 11/27/12 2:53pm
Msg #444759

They also do DD/MM/YYYY instead of MM/DD/YYYY. n/m

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/27/12 1:17am
Msg #444689

Lender will probably throw a phit! n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 11/27/12 1:58am
Msg #444690

I don't get the big deal... I think some of these companies are far too uptight about a signature matching a printed name. A signature is just a written representation of something. It can be a mark or a squiggle...do they get their undies in a bunch in those situations when they can't actually *read* the signature? Do they turn the docs back and slap the borrowers on the hand like their 3rd grade teachers and tell them they have poor handwriting skills and to try again? No, they don't So why get all upset when they apparently can read it. Why the difference?

If the signature on the guy's ID matches the one he uses on the docs, then what's the big deal? So what if he writes it that way? Maybe he has a good reason for it? I know some people have certain signatures for certain circumstances for personal security reasons. Seems to me that it would be preferable that he use his ordinary signature on the documents else sometime in the future he challenge it by saying it's not his signature.

There could be a million reasons why people sign their names the way they do. What if he's been a victim of identity theft in the past and he now does this on purpose as a way of ensuring it's really *his* signature and not somebody else. IT's not foolproof of course, but it could be one reason.

Reply by CentralNY on 11/27/12 4:41am
Msg #444696

many years ago in a law firm closing Charles

changed his name to Charliss for obvious reasons and there was a bit of a to do about id that wasn't updated to match the new and improved Charliss, i believe app said male. Ru Paul she was not.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/27/12 4:42am
Msg #444697

both my sons have "squiggles" when it comes to signing their name. I did advise them they should write out their name on certain documents, but nope, they want to use the squiggle signature....oh well.

I agree with Marian, in that if the signature on ID matches how they sign, well, we can't do anything about that.

If the lender wants them to resign their name in a legible fashion, I believe that they would be asking the BO to do an illegal act, in that they would be forced to sign their name (legibly) that is not the normal way THEY sign. IDK, not an attorney, and not trying to pretend to be one.

One of our duties as a notary public is verify the identity of the folks and that the signatures match up from ID to documents.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 11/27/12 9:33am
Msg #444719

I disagree with "If the lender wants them to resign their name in a legible fashion, I believe that they would be asking the BO to do an illegal act, in that they would be forced to sign their name (legibly) that is not the normal way THEY sign. IDK, not an attorney, and not trying to pretend to be one." If the person makes some kind of mark with the intent of executing the document, they executed it, whether the mark is the one they usually use or not. It's just that if they use their usual mark, handwriting experts could compare the mark on the document in question with other examples of the signer's signature, and confirm that it most likely was executed by the person it purports to be executed by. If the signer makes up a special signature just for this occasion, the handwriting experts may very well say they can't tell who's signature it is.

Of course, if society really trusted notaries, our say-so that the correct person executed the document would settle the matter and it wouldn't matter how the signer signed.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/27/12 11:55am
Msg #444741

mark is diff and so NOT the topic of discussion here...

...when someone uses a mark for a signature, at least in IL, its because an:

"...the individual is prevented by disability or illiteracy from writing a signature..."

The OP original topic of discussion is NOT because he signed using a mark. It was because he signed his name, a totally different spelling of his name on the loan docs.

And its because of that misspelled signature which MAY in fact, hold up a closing or cause for a total redraw of loan docs.

In fact, if the BO gets away with signing his name, misspelled, and their is no Signature Affidavit to back it up, he very well could cry 'fraud' later on to try to get out of his mortgage obligations. Ultimately, its the lender's decision to keep or redraw.

Now that I think about, there may be issues with filing the mortgage if the name on the mortgage is NOT spelled the way the person signed the documents, assuming the signature is legible. (again not an attorney, not legal advice, etc etc)

Nevertheless, we are not talking about signatures by mark.

The OP said the person signed their name in a totally different spelling, something that should've been addressed at the table IMO, by calling the LO or TC. At least, I would've call to give a heads up, and to see if we should continue with the closing with the BO signing his name in that misspelled fashion.

I would have asked him to sign the way his ID shows it be written - if it is spelled Phred, then he should sign as Phred.

But how do we really know if the person who is listed on the loan docs is the same person in front of us? We check their identifying documents. Yes that's part of the job as a notary.

Anyway, if no one is aware that the BO signs his name in a totally different spelling of whats on the loan docs, that's a cause for concern and a call to the hiring party is warranted regardless.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 11/27/12 2:30pm
Msg #444754

sometimes a mark is no different than a signature

The Uniform Commercial Code definition of "Sign":

"Sign" means, with present intent to authenticate or adopt a record:

(i) to execute or adopt a tangible symbol; or

(ii) to attach to or logically associate with the record an electronic sound, symbol, or process.

Now, not all documents are covered by the UCC, but clearly the UCC makes no distinction between legible signatures and other symbols.

See http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/article2.htm

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/27/12 3:56pm
Msg #444772

VT Syrup...again, we are NOT talking about a Mark Signature

what part of this don't you understand?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 11/27/12 4:15pm
Msg #444780

Re: VT Syrup...again, we are NOT talking about a Mark Signature

There is no difference between an illegible scrawl and an X. Neither is the person's name. Both are legal as signatures, at least if the document is covered by the UCC. There is nothing to stop a literate person from signing with an X, although it would create confusion and doubt. There is nothing to keep a person who is both literate and who has full use of his/her hand from signing with a mark. As long as there is enough evidence to show the person really did sign the document with the intent of entering into the agreement, and without duress, the person will be bound to the agreement.

I'm sure you can find a procedure for a signature by mark that applies to some documents in some states. But you can't prove that signing with an illegible mark is always a different procedure, in every state, and for every kind of document, than signing with a legible signature.

Reply by parkerc/ME on 11/27/12 9:08am
Msg #444716

Agree with Carrie and Marian. If the signature matches the ID signature, I see no problem. At least 50% of the time, the signatures are such scrawls that you just can't differentiate whether there is a MI, Jr, Sr. I, II, or III..or what in it. When in doubt, I ask the borrower...is this the legal signature that you use for all documents? It's always yes. Do you think the pharmacist is going to try to decipher the doctor's prescription signature? As long as it matches what's on file (or on ID)..it's good. (And we won't even go into people who can only sign with a mark "X".)

Reply by notarydi/CA on 11/27/12 11:39am
Msg #444739

just a phinal phun note to all this.....

the guy's signature was clearly legible on his i.d. and when he signed the docs as "Phred". If it had been illegible, I probably would not have given it a second thought. My background is mortgage (funding, underwriting, secondary marketing, foreclosure). I tend to look at these files sometimes as the bigger picture (Is secondary going to have a problem selling this loan with his signature like this? Will it be a foreclosure problem if the guy comes back and says that's not my signature my name and signature is "Fred"?). That given, I have to stop myself, and say, " I am only the notary.". As long as I have performed my notorial duties correctly that's all that matters. Have a great month end everyone! Have phun!

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 11/27/12 2:02pm
Msg #444750

Cute n/m

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/27/12 11:56am
Msg #444743

Not the rite person

Not sure how OP morphed into another chat about squiggly, scrawly signatures, a subject that has been hashed and rehashed here 50,000,000 times already (tho always interesting). Notarydi wrote that borrower signed (legibly) using different letters than what was on his ID: Phred for Fred.

That's like Cynthnia on ID and docs, but borrower signs Sinthia (sounds like a stripper, but I digress); How about signing Knowa for Noah? Gym for Jim? How far can this go? Kristy for Christie, Reetah for Rita, Kwin for Quinn (or vice verse)? Because one's name sounds the same pronounced numerous ways, can they sign any/all of those ways? Well, know ... I mean no. Because someone who signs their name using different letters than what is on their ID is not the borrower you were sent out to notarize. If borrower is legibly signing "Phred" then he better have "Phred" on his ID. He could just as easily sign"Pfhred" if he wanted to continue going phoentic, and while we're at it, why not let him sign any name he wants? We're talking two different people here. If you can read it, you cannot change the spelling, IMO.

BTW, notarydi, I would have been so shocked I probably would have done exactly what you did and let the lender worry about it. (My above post is all Monday-morning quarterbacking.)

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 11/27/12 2:59pm
Msg #444761

Re: Not the rite person

I wouldn't' say that it's not the right person. I mean, if the signature on the government issued ID matches the signature on the documents, and it's obviously the same person, based on the photo, etc. -- then what's the problem? So what if they apparently write their name differently... their signature is still their signature. Ot me it doesn't matter if it's a big ole squiggle or a poorly printed and misspelled version of their name... if it's what they wrote, it's what they wrote.

About two years ago, I notarized the signature on a bunch of legal documents for a disabled man. This is just an example for privacy reasons... but I'll call him Sam. His full ID Read Samuel Matthew Smith. You know how he signed his name?

S A M

That's it. In three big block letters and he was very meticulous about it. His ID card was signed just like that, and that's how he signed all the paperwork, too. I had no problem with it... it was *his* signature and it matched his government ID.

Who am I to tell him, "Hey Sam, sorry buddy, but you've got to write out our full name here because some desk jocky is going to have a coronary if what you write doesn't match exactly."

Our job is to verify the ID and signature on the ID... when they start using different signatures than on their ID it gets complicated, and frankly, some people get pretty cranky when they get told how to sign their name. I know I would.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 11/27/12 3:54pm
Msg #444771

Re: Not the rite person

<< ... if the signature on the government issued ID matches the signature on the documents, and it's obviously the same person, based on the photo, etc. -- then what's the problem?>>

The problem is it's I don't believe it is my job to compare, match or issue judgments on signatures. People's sigs change over the years, and I'm not a hand-writing expert. I could not care less about what signatures look like on IDs as compared to how somebody writes in front me today. I ID the person in front of me based on the name on his ID. If I'm not satisfied with that, then I don't know if I've got the guy the lender wants to sign. I also don't spend much time looking at photos. People change too much. It's not my job to do facial recognition. But I'm certainly not going to let somebody "misspell" their name in their signature cos "that's the way they've always done it" or cos they think it's cute ... Somebody can get cranky with me all they want when they change the spelling of the name in their signature as compared to what's on their ID. That's a no-go for me. I wouldn't tell anybody how to sign, but if someone makes up another name than what's on the ID, too bad.

Yes, I am ID'ing the person in front of me, but I also want to make plenty sure that that's the same person who is named in the docs. The lender isn't sending me out just to ID the person in front of me; they're sending me out to get the proper person to sign, who, hopefully, is the person in front of me and whom I have ID'd.

As far as S A M goes, that's good as far as I'd be concerned. At least he spelled it right, more or less, and that's his signature. But bad example; the point of the original post was not to tell somebody like Sam that he has to sign his name a certain way; it was about people changing the spelling of their name in their signature as compared to what is on their ID. In other words, introducing a new name or new letters in a name for which there is no ID to back it up.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 11/27/12 4:02pm
Msg #444774

Re: Not the rite person

If a misspelling created any doubt in my mind that I had the right person, I'd refuse to act. But I'd act if there is overwhelming evidence that "Fred" and "Phred" are one and the same person; I probably wouldn't be convinced unless I knew Fred/Phred and understood why he insists on the odd spelling. It would help a lot if he lived down the street and I watched him build the house with his own hands.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 11/27/12 4:07pm
Msg #444775

Re: Not the rite person

Okay... but then we're told that a photo and signature are required elements in an ID for notarization. If you don't pay attention to them how can you possibly accurately ID somebody? Sure, signatures and looks can changes, but there are still elements that never change that you can still usually identify.

And how does matching a printed name in a random document fulfill that requirement? You can't possibly rely on a printed name to match a printed name as a way of identifying a person.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/27/12 4:08pm
Msg #444777

GOLDGIRL/CA...are you insane?! What do you mean you could

care less what the signatures look like on IDs as compared to how somebody writes in front of me today. Driver's License and State Issued IDs are sometimes good for up to 4 years...how is that going to change the person's signature any? And if it does, not by much. Passports perhaps, is where one could see a slight variation in change of ones signature, but even these are pretty much the same even after 10 years.

It is our job as a notary public to make sure the person signing the docs is the same person as photographed on their identification documents, AND that the signatures on those documents, pretty much match up as to how they sign your journal or docs. Seriously, I can't believe you proclaimed to the world that you could care less. I sure as hell wouldn't hire you!

One doesn't have to be a handwriting expert, that's certainly NOT our job. But a notary public/nsa better damn well be sure that the person in front of them, is one and the same person as the person listed on their id's AND that their signatures are damn near the same! No matter what docs they are signing!

If you don't compare signatures, then you can't make sure "that that's the same person who is named in the docs". No brainer.

Reply by Sharon Spence on 11/27/12 10:24pm
Msg #444836

Re: GOLDGIRL/CA...are you insane?! What do you mean you could

Well, good, I'm glad you wouldn't hire me cos I certainly wouldn't want to work for somebody who expected, for example, my signature today to match that on my DL, which is going on 25 years old now along with my photo and in no way whatsoever remotely resembles how I sign today. DMV has never required me to update it for that long.

Comparing signatures is counterproductive. It is certainly one of four elements that every ID must have but the SOS does not require CA notaries to make any analysis of how it looks on the ID to how the person in front of you signs. It only says there must be a signature. It doesn't say anything about it "matching." How foolish.

And just cos you and I disagree, doesn't necessarily make me insane.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 11/27/12 3:57pm
Msg #444773

Re: Not the rite person

The original post indicated the nationality had been changed to protect privacy. Keep in mind the signer might feel his "real" name is something written in non-Roman characters. There are several methods around to transliterate foreign characters into Roman. It could be that at some point in the process of getting ID in Roman characters, some official decided to use a method that lead to "Fred" but the signer prefers a method that leads to "Phred".

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 11/27/12 4:26pm
Msg #444783

...as long as the BO signs a Signature Affidavit with

Phred as his signature, I think the loan docs could be saved.

Reply by LKT/CA on 11/27/12 8:20pm
Msg #444820

<<<borrower spells name Fred. I.D. is Fred. Docs are drawn as Fred. Signs Phred. Signature on I.D. is Phred.>>>

I don't see any problem here as everything matches and signature is supported by what is on I.D. This is why I always include a copy of the ID with the docs, even if the TC does not ask for one because when I include a copy, I don't get a phone call from TC asking ME about signer's signature. They have the ID copy to match signature on docs to signature on ID. Actually, I find it quite clever to sign one's name phonetically. It really would ZING an identity thief.

Reply by BrendaTx on 11/27/12 8:24pm
Msg #444821

*Actually, I find it quite clever to sign one's name phonetically.*

Don't anyone quote me on this, because I don't want to hunt my cites and post them, but in Texas, case law has determined that if a name is Fred in the chain of title, and Phred shows up, it's not a deal breaker...as long as it sounds alike!

I salute your thought process and your decision.