Posted by 101livescan on 10/5/12 9:00am
Msg #437270

Another nono scenario

I'm going to be posting these events as they come to my mind. In over 40 years as a notary public who signs on the average of 6 loans a day, some less, some more, I've seen a lot of bad notary work especially since 911 when the Patriot Act became the law that changed the landscape for notaries public internationally and at home.

In one case, I was called by a notary who is a premier member on this board. She called after she left a signing of an OR property refi. Provident ( AKA picky Provident). The borrower was here on business and left right after the signing to drive back home in OR.

The notary called me for advice because the ACK on the DOT was wrong, it did not have a CA acknowledgement attached, and after all, she was notariing in Santa Barbara, CA. She calls me up to tell me she drew a line through OR ACK and wrote, SEE ATTACHED CA ACK.

She asked me, DID SHE DO THE RIGHT THING? YIKES, YOWSERS, WTF~I went into my explanation that the property will record in OR and should have that state's ACK attached, and no she did not do the right thing.

She says, well, his signature is very easy to emulate, so I'll just reprint that page and sign his name...WTF WTF...holy cow. I just started fuming. I hit the ceiling. One, not knowing what to do, and two, forging borrowers signature on a DOT, security instrument for the note which will record in that county and state...PICKY PROVIDENT, okay the following is key information for every NSA....

One, you never line through OROVIDENT documents, two, their underwriters compare the borrowers signature on the SIGNATURE NAME AFFIDAVIT and the DOT and NOTE to make sure they are identical...if not they kick it back.

Others lenders may do this to, but I now for sure Provident does this on every loan they UW.

See why I get to do so much damage control? This notary attended my notary class in Santa Barbara in 2009, we covered this information...if she renews this year, it will be her third term. I hope she learned something. I know that she is barely scraping by as a notary, and perhaps she's just not committed to upholding the duties and responsibilities of this official capacity she took the oath for.

This is real life event. I'm pretty sure the borrower had to re-sign in OR because PICKY PROVIDENT would definitely pick up on this signature mismatch. What an inconvenience to everyone involved, Provident, the SS, client and Title/Escrow. I hope the rate was not compromised. BIG ISSUE!

Notaries who do not know notarial law as it relates to out of state documents can seriously flaw the process and compromise loan rate by these simple errors.

Have an awesome day everyone, and have a GOOD AND WILDLY SUCCESSFUL SIGNING day. These are meant to educate and promote knowledge among emerging professional notary SAs.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/5/12 9:12am
Msg #437272

But does Oregon require a certain form of certificate? If not, couldn't the notary you're criticizing be interpreting the California rules to mean that an out-of-state certificate may only be used by a CA notary when the other state requires it?

Just in case I ever get a Provident loan, what procedure does Provident allow for attaching the notary's own certificate when the one provided by Provident is unacceptable?

Reply by 101livescan on 10/5/12 9:40am
Msg #437277

In California, while notary is notarizing a deed for property in another state, it is widely accepted and expected the notary will use the ACK attached by that out of state escrow officer.

They know what they're doing. Notaries can attach a second loose ACK if that makes them feel more comfortable, but it likely will not be recorded behind that other states ACK for that State/County recording.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/5/12 3:33pm
Msg #437343

"In California, while notary is notarizing a deed for property in another state, it is widely accepted and expected the notary will use the ACK attached by that out of state escrow officer. "

Yeah.... not so much anymore Cheryl, not for at least the last 6 years or so. It's very much the opposite, actually. There are only a few situations where we are actually permitted to use certificates that deviate from the state approved wording.

Reply by 101livescan on 10/5/12 9:51am
Msg #437278

In California, while notary is notarizing a deed for property located in another state, in California, it is widely accepted and expected the notary will use the ACK attached by that out of state escrow officer to be recorded.

Escrow officers/loan document preparers know what they're doing. Notaries can attach a second loose ACK if that makes them feel more comfortable, but it likely will not be recorded behind that other state's ACK for that out of State/County recording.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/5/12 10:49am
Msg #437298

101livescan tells us "Escrow officers/loan document preparers know what they're doing." Well, I'm going to judge them by the finished product. Maybe that's not fair; maybe they really know their stuff and some automated document assembly software is screwing up their fine work. I don't care. I'm going to judge them by the finished product.

Here's a finished product for you, at the end of a document to be acknowledged (as best I can represent it in this forum):

Dated this ______ day of _______________, ________.

______________________________

Mary Doe (made up signer name)

My Comm. Exp:

_______________________________

Notary Public


Sorry, I can't accept that escrow officers/loan document preparers know what they're doing.

By the way, the only way I could figure out this was to be acknowledged rather than affirmed was to email the signing service.

Reply by bfnotary on 10/5/12 9:21am
Msg #437274

Even to think about forging someones signature is just plain crazy and of course illegal. Wow. If that ever happened to me, I would just take the pay cut, while they have someone in OR fix my error. (heck I would take no pay at all for it, instead of forging a signature). OMG. I am just shocked, and even more shocked that this notary actually said that to you. You could have turned her in and got her nailed to a wall. I just can't believe some people.

Reply by ikando on 10/5/12 9:52am
Msg #437279

It's not just notaries. I had a representative of a title company tell me she forged initials "all the time". Maybe not as bad as a full signature, but still...

Reply by Teresa/FL on 10/5/12 9:58am
Msg #437283

If there was a LPO in the title docs, wouldn't that cover the adding of initials by the EO?

Reply by PegiT_MN on 10/5/12 10:01am
Msg #437286

"It's not just notaries. I had a representative of a title company tell me she forged initials "all the time". Maybe not as bad as a full signature, but still..."

......and a full signature that this notary is going to forge and then she is going to notarize it and then that document is going to get recorded with the county. YIKES!

Reply by HisHughness on 10/5/12 10:13am
Msg #437290

On initials

Initials are rarely, if ever, requisite to the execution of a document. When you sign a document, you have executed it, and are bound by its provisions. Offhand, I cannot picture any document in which initials represent anything other than an acknowledgment by the signer than he has seen that portion of the document. That applies even when the initials are used to acknowledge blocks of text.

The difference between forging a signature, which invalidates the execution of the document, and forging initials, which would not, is vast.

Reply by 101livescan on 10/5/12 11:33am
Msg #437307

Re: On initials

Thank you, Hugh...

Reply by PegiT_MN on 10/5/12 9:58am
Msg #437284

Holy crap.....I can't believe she would even think of "emulating" a signature. She is going to forge his signature on the DOT and then she is going to notarize it.....nice one.

As far as the DOT goes......if the borrower had been in Minnesota for his Oregon property closing, most lenders would tell me to cross off the Oregon and the county where it is getting recorded because I am supposed to put where the closing took place, not where the DOT is being recorded. I get that. However, if it were a Provident closing and we are not supposed to alter their documents, how would I get around that? Would I attach an acknowledgement?

Thank you for sharing this.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 10/5/12 10:00am
Msg #437285

yes, attach an ack. That's the only way around it. n/m

Reply by PegiT_MN on 10/5/12 10:02am
Msg #437287

Thank You Shoshana. n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/5/12 1:19pm
Msg #437324

I've done hundred of Provident signings - most local, but occasionally out of state. If I don't feel I can use the acknowledgment provided for any reason, I simply add a loose certificate without making any marks on the provided one - always on the same page as the signatures. I don't like doing that, but especially as picky as Provident is, we know they're not going to be able to do anything with the blank cert anyway. Also, the loose certificates I created for myself have an optional section at the bottom for additional information that ties it (or "attaches" it) to that specific document.

I've done that several times with Provident files without any problems.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/5/12 10:25am
Msg #437292

"I went into my explanation that the property will record in OR and should have that state's ACK attached, and no she did not do the right thing."

Well, I'm not entirely sure about that. Now, with Provident...that's a different kettle... but as a general rule, just because it is an acknowledgment and is will be recording in another state doesn't mean that was MUST use the wording supplied to us. I know of NO state, not even California, the has specific wording required for the ack on their DOTs to be recorded. Not one. Trust me, I've looked. So to tell someone that they did the wrong thing by not using the supplied wording, I think, might be misguided. As notaries, we need to use the wording approved by OUR governing authorities, not others.

Remember that we are told (in CA) that we can use other acknowledgement wording if and only if it is REQUIRED for filing in another state (state only.. if it goes out of the country we have to use the CA wording)... AND it doesn't require to certify something we can't. In my experience, that rarely ever occurs because of the first part. Properly executed acknowledgements done in the location taken are generally accepted everywhere, no matter the wording. Even CA law states states that we must accept out of state notarizations provided they are properly done in their jurisdiction.

I have ever only come across ONE document that says they require specific acknowledgment wording for filing or it will be rejected - and it was a federal form. Even then, it seems some notaries have said they've attached loose forms and not had an issue.

Personally, unless I get written instructions telling me that wording is required for filing, they get CA compliant wording because the notarization is taking place in CA...not that other state. CA uses specific wording in their certificates for a reason and I'm not going to open myself up to issues that I don't need to. If they don't like it, they don't have to use me or they author the documents properly to begin with.It's not that difficult.


Now as for the whole signature thing??? HOLY CRUDDY COW... whatever gave her an idea that was okay?

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 10/5/12 11:13am
Msg #437302

Notary Signing No-nos (Label)

Ok, so this is pretty informative; and I'd like to see more like this - gleaning from 20, 30, even 40 years notary experience!!
Would love to see Discussion Labels to help me know how to use my Time . . .,

I do understand that the placing of initials does not result in a document's execution, but . . .

this, I found interesting: <The difference between forging a signature, which invalidates the execution of the document, and forging initials, which would not, is vast> by Mr. H

DOT comes to mind where nothing tells borrowers to initial ea page, but lender wants (and I know I'm not going to put anybody's initials on Anything that's forgotten); IMO it's just one step closer to the "signature forging" scenario --like the "little white lie"

Reply by Teresa/FL on 10/5/12 11:22am
Msg #437304

Doesn't the TC's LPO allow them to place initials? n/m

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 10/5/12 11:52am
Msg #437312

Re: Doesn't the TC's LPO allow them to place initials?

Limited POA: I suppose this presumes that missing initials are "omissions," which flaky laws would say Yes one day (or in one state) and No in another

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/5/12 12:28pm
Msg #437317

Huh?

<<In California, while notary is notarizing a deed for property in another state, it is widely accepted and expected the notary will use the ACK attached by that out of state escrow officer.>>

Actually, I have never heard such a thing. Quite the opposite. It's widely expected and accepted a CA notary will attack their own ack. In the first place, most out of state acks I have seen contain info a CA notary is not allowed to participate in, notably capacity and often "personally known." So right off the bat, that ship has sailed. So besides all those cross-outs, we'd need to cross out the preprinted venue. Provident would never allow all this and many others frown on. You say out of state escrow people/loan processors know what they're doing, but I don't know that. Best thing to do for a CA notary is to follow CA notary laws and attach a loose cert. This is not just a "comfort" issue. This is a notarization taking place in CA, and I don't want to get involved in what other states and county recorders require or don't require or what other state's escrow officers do or don't do. And then there's the recordable jurats. CA compliant jurats on out of state docs are as rare as praise for Obama's Denver debate performance. So it would be absolutely required we either use a jurat stamp or loose certificate in that case, accepted and expected aside.

I don't see that your notary "did not know notarial law as it relates to out of state documents" or did anything wrong in that regard. As I read your post, she did know what to do. Now, proposing to forge a notarizable signature is another story, tho I'm sure she wouldn't be the first. Perhaps you should hammer that point home a little harder if you're still teaching classes.

And you, too, have an awsome day. Six jobs a day. Wow! And, I might add, at your age! Yes, we know you just applied for Medicare. Did you ever settle on a supplement? If you don't like it, you can change at your next birthday. (I can talk to you like this cos I'm up there, too, and my energy level ain't what it used to be.)

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 10/5/12 12:42pm
Msg #437318

Re: Huh?....excellent post. n/m

Reply by PegiT_MN on 10/5/12 3:43pm
Msg #437344

Re: Doesn't the TC's LPO allow them to place initials?

Chase does not allow the LPO to be used at all.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/5/12 1:58pm
Msg #437331

I kind of split the difference between Marian's position and Cheryl's. If I know I'm signing a property in a different state - and if I have time - I check online to see if that state's authority has published acknowledgment wording for their notaries. If there's something specific and if it doesn't conflict with any CA requirements (like saying "I know this person to be..." or "personally known to me..." or any capacity, I'll use it on the recordable docs only. In my searches I have come across several situations where what was provided didn't seem to match what I saw, so I don't ever assume anything anymore.

If I don't have time to check or if there's any doubt in my mind, I go ahead and attach a loose cert.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 10/5/12 2:27pm
Msg #437335

I'm backing Marian and GG on this one. My responsibility is to know CA notarial law, not the other 49 states. Signing is taking place in CA and that's the verbiage I use.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/5/12 3:46pm
Msg #437345

That's how I look at it, too... I mean... Our job is the notarization, not the filing requirements.

Too many people simply don't understand what a notarization is, I think that's the problem. They place way too much emphasis on it in places where it just doesn't need to be.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/5/12 2:29pm
Msg #437336

I have actually done this, too, Janet, a couple of times. But in reality, it's pointless, because as Marian pointed out, other states must accept our notarizations regardless if the ack/jurat is compliant for their state or not. Think of it this way: If a NY notary filled out a CA ack that had improper wording (which we occasionally still see), a CA county recorder would be obligated to accept it. The NY notary wouldn't necessarily know it wasn't CA compliant and probably wouldn't even care. Besides that, it is not his responsibility. In other words, knowing if an out-of-state ack is actually compliant with that state's verbiage requirements (if any) is meaningless. They have to accept what we send them (tho soetimes they don't act like it).

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/5/12 5:02pm
Msg #437355

In practical terms, GOLDGIRL/CA is right. All the states I've ever heard of take out-of-state notarizations that were performed in accord with the law of the state where the notarization was performed. So the recorders have to follow their own state law, and their own state law commands them to accept the out-of-state notarization. Since the recorders have no practical way to know what the out-of-state requirements are, they have to take whatever they get.

But later, if the deed ever finds it way into court, the lawyers will have time to research what the requirements were where the notarization took place, and if the notarization isn't right, the deed can be attacked. Bankruptcy trustees have been attacking mortgages and deeds of trust a lot lately.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/5/12 6:16pm
Msg #437361

"But later, if the deed ever finds it way into court, the lawyers will have time to research what the requirements were where the notarization took place, and if the notarization isn't right, the deed can be attacked. Bankruptcy trustees have been attacking mortgages and deeds of trust a lot lately."

...and THAT is a darn good reason to make sure you perform the notarization according to the local law where the notarization took place.

For CA notaries, that can get really hairy, especially because we *do* have written guidelines of what to do in these cases.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/5/12 6:07pm
Msg #437360

Good point. In fact, now that I think about it, it's been a very long time since I've found a situation where I didn't end up replacing the certificate anyway.

Reply by kathy/ca on 10/5/12 11:22pm
Msg #437391

I have always attached a CA Ack, never a problem in 9 yrs!! n/m

Reply by Signerbill on 10/6/12 10:46am
Msg #437418

Think out of the box...car

Excellent idea.... I can take all the $50.00 signings, sit at home and sign the documents for the borrowers, send them a service charge bill, and save on gas. Think of it... what a wonderful life. Anyone know where Brenie is living now?