Posted by Paula/OR on 10/29/12 11:28pm
Msg #441204

Borrowers are using RTC mistakes to avoid foreclosure

Please take time to review the 2009 laws regarding proper execution of RTC. EACH borrower must receive 2 signed and dated"I have received 2 copies of RTC and 1 copy of TIL" so if a package has 3 RTC you take from the borrowers package 3 now you have 6 to sign. If you have 2 borrowers you must print 1 more RTC. Now you have 7 to sign; 3 signed RTC back to lender, 2 each signed to borrower; 4 total. Title, lender, servicer all want originals that is why there are 3. If a borrower chooses to cancel and they return a RTC NOT signed and dated when is was received but signed and dated at "I wish to cancel" the cancellation may not be valid. I know because I was instructed for years to leave only 2 RTC with a husband and wife. In March of this year I get a phone call from an attorney who says borrower's attorney is challenging the foreclosure because wife did not receive 2 copies of RTC in 2007. I pointed out that the amened law dictating 2 sets to each borrower went into effect after the date of the loan and e-mailed copies the instructions sent to me by SS(yes I keep all that paper, thank goodness!). I am still waiting notification of depositions. Maybe they will settle. Never leave unsigned RTC anywhere. I make a big production of delivering the RTC and TIL to borrowers. I pull their copies from their packs before I get to the table, get them signed and hand each borrower the 2 RTC and 1 TIL and watch them clip the docs to their package. Hope this helps.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 10/29/12 11:46pm
Msg #441207

This is VERY OLD NEWS

This has been going on for quite a while. I don't know of any such cases that have been upheld in court. In truth, they do not need the RTC to cancel. Any piece of paper will do. In addition, what if they perjure themselves, say they didn't receive it when they actually had and shredded them? Since 2002 (when i became a signing agent, as far as I know, it has always been two completed copies for each signer.

Reply by Paula/OR on 10/30/12 12:49am
Msg #441213

Re: This is VERY OLD NEWS

See very active message #441147. Is that each signer or each name on note? My loan was husband sole and separate wife joined in marital property state. Only husband name on Note plus I was following SS instructions. What is your advise?

Reply by Paula A Woodburn on 10/30/12 12:52am
Msg #441214

Re: This is VERY OLD NEWS

Ohps! #441061

Reply by Barb25 on 10/30/12 7:08am
Msg #441222

Paula - That's each person on the Mortgage - not - Note. n/m

Reply by Belinda/CA on 10/30/12 12:07am
Msg #441209

Thanks for sharing your important info. Old news or not,

It doesn't hurt to have it said again. This board is not just for people who have been around awhile. New people come here too and any shared info is helpful if only a reminder. Plus, not everyone reads absolutely everything written here every day. Maybe you saying this is the first someone has heard it. Thanks from those out there who may have just got informed.

Reply by HisHughness on 10/30/12 1:03am
Msg #441215

*** EACH borrower must receive 2 signed and dated***

I don't think this is correct. I think the borrower needs to get two copies, not two signed copies. Of course, the dates have to be included and correct.

Reply by Patriot on 10/30/12 7:54am
Msg #441229

Each borrower MUST receive 2 signed AND dated RTCs. That is absolutely correct.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 10/30/12 7:56am
Msg #441231

Again it's the signer.

A non-borrowing spouse is on the DOT/Mortgage but not the note. They are signers, but NOT borrowers.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/30/12 7:56am
Msg #441232

Well.... actually... they receive 2 copies that they then must sign and date acknowledging receipt of said copies.

Distinct, but important difference.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/30/12 8:01am
Msg #441235

Marian, IMO this acknowledgement of receipt is for

lender file - they're acknowledging to lender that they did, in fact, receive two copies - not two signed and dated copies. So the NORTC with the signed and dated acknowledgement goes back to lender...there's nothing that says they are to receive signed and dated copies of it - at least not that I've found.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/30/12 8:26am
Msg #441237

Re: Marian, IMO this acknowledgement of receipt is for

No, that's what I meant, too... Linda I think you and HUgh are absolutely right.

I think I"m just tired because it's 6:30 in the morning and I've been up most the not with a sick dog.

Reply by HisHughness on 10/30/12 9:50am
Msg #441250

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY INCORRECT

***Each borrower MUST receive 2 signed AND dated RTCs. That is absolutely correct.***

One of the dangers when a participant in this forum is more concerned about the tone of postings than the substance is that the participant just doesn't learn much.

<It is not necessary, as I noted earlier, to deliver SIGNED copies of the RTC to consumers at a closing.> Some lenders or title companies may require that the NSA do so, but there is no LEGAL requirement that it be done. The borrower's copy of the closing packet, if it contains the requisite number of RTCs, is entirely adequate to meet federal regulations.

Sect. 226.15(a)(ii)(4)(b) of the Truth in Lending Act Regulation Z >>>CLEARLY<<< states:

(b) Notice of right to rescind. In any transaction or occurrence subject to rescission, a creditor shall deliver two copies of the notice of the right to rescind to each consumer entitled to rescind (one copy to each if the notice is delivered in electronic form in accordance with the consumer consent and other applicable provisions of the E-Sign Act). The notice shall identify the transaction or occurrence and clearly and conspicuously disclose the following:

(1) The retention or acquisition of a security interest in the consumer's principal dwelling.

(2) The consumer's right to rescind, as described in paragraph (a)(1) of this section.

(3) How to exercise the right to rescind, with a form for that purpose, designating the address of the creditor's place of business.

(4) The effects of rescission, as described in paragraph (d) of this section.

(5) The date the rescission period expires.

Note that nowhere does Regulation Z require signed copies for delivery to the consumer.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 10/30/12 7:54am
Msg #441230

They have to be signed and dated. If they are not signed and dated, any date could be put in that document after the fact. That's the reason why you have to pull the extra blank copies that the signers don't need.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/30/12 7:58am
Msg #441233

I do not believe they have to be signed and dated..but

they have to be complete with dates filled in - from Reg Z

23(b) Notice of right to rescind.

1. Who receives notice. Each consumer entitled to rescind must be given:
• Two copies of the rescission notice.

• The material disclosures.

In a transaction involving joint owners, both of whom are entitled to rescind, both must receive the notice of the right to rescind and disclosures. For example, if both spouses are entitled to rescind a transaction, each must receive two copies of the rescission notice (one copy to each if the notice is provided in electronic form in accordance with the consumer consent and other applicable provisions of the E-Sign Act) and one copy of the disclosures.

2. Format. The notice must be on a separate piece of paper, but may appear with other information such as the itemization of the amount financed. The material must be clear and conspicuous, but no minimum type size or other technical requirements are imposed. The notices in appendix H provide models that creditors may use in giving the notice.

3. Content. The notice must include all of the information outlined in section 226.23(b)(1)(i) through (v). The requirement in § 226.23(b) that the transaction be identified may be met by providing the date of the transaction. The creditor may provide a separate form that the consumer may use to exercise the right of rescission, or that form may be combined with the other rescission disclosures, as illustrated in appendix H. The notice may include additional information related to the required information, such as:

• A description of the property subject to the security interest.

• A statement that joint owners may have the right to rescind and that a rescission by one is effective for all.

• The name and address of an agent of the creditor to receive notice of rescission.


Nothing said about them receiving two signed and dated copies..if I missed it please show me where it is.

http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/6500-2380.html

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/30/12 8:24am
Msg #441236

Re: I do not believe they have to be signed and dated..but

Linda, I think you're right about that. The dates must be filled in. I think the rest is just "fluff" of them acknowledging receipt of the notice of their right.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/30/12 8:00am
Msg #441234

Correct, Hugh - signatures are not required under TILA

While I have no doubt the poster means well, and agree that we should be at least familiar with the laws that govern the industry we work with/for – there is too much incorrect information in this post to let it pass.

Technically, there is no law regarding “proper execution of RTC” in that it is not required to be executed (signed). It is entirely the Lender’s discretion to add signature lines to the RTC form – and most of them do. The requirement for 2 copies of the RTC to each person with an ownership interest wasn’t amended except to allow for only 1 copy if disclosure is made electronically.

*Note – loan pkgs are rarely printed by lenders, but electronically delivered, often with just single copies of the RTC. Within the Closing Instructions from lender to title is a requirement to provide X copies to borrower (typically 2 each). IMO & per many TC/SS contracts, the duty to print/deliver the number of copies the lender requires falls to the NSA when they are the one doing the printing.

The original post stated effectively that a Rescission made using an unsigned-on-receipt RTC form may be invalid is not correct. I don’t doubt the poster was drawn into this by an attorney, though – and that’s already been commented on.

There were amendments made to Reg Z/TILA (the Act governing the RTC) in 2008 under the Mortgage Disclosure Improvement Act of 2008 (much of it implemented in 2009), but none of which were as posted. The MDIA can be read here - complete with proposals, comments and final ruling:

http://www.federalreserve.gov/reportforms/formsreview/RegZ_20090519_ffr.pdf

Reg Z/TILA can be read here – or skip to Subpart C, Right of Rescission:

http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/6500-1400.html

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/30/12 10:14am
Msg #441258

Actually,i do not believe that the dates need to be"correct"

The stand for says..
"... You have a legal right under federal law to cancel this new transaction, without cost, within three busines day from whichever of the following events occurs last:

(1) the date of this new transaction which is xx/xx/xxxx : or
(2( THE DATE YOU RECEIVED YOUR tRUTH-IN-lENDING DISCLOSURES: OR
(3) THE DATE YOU RECEIVED THIS NOTICE OF YOUR RIGHT TO CANCEL"
The thre biz days starts to run upon receipt of the doc, even if dates in the doc are differenty.

The signature line typically says that they acknowledge receipt of two copies of the document.



The parties who have the right to cancel typically sign and date a copy of the RTC at "closing"
This constitutes evicence that they received the required two copies.

Reply by ReneeK_MI on 10/30/12 10:37am
Msg #441261

Law requires "date"

In reading case law, the signature of receipt has not been sufficient to evidence actual receipt of two copies - yeah, I know, but ... that's what the courts have ruled.

As for the date, the act states the notice must contain:

(v) The date the rescission period expires.

Reply by Bob_Chicago on 10/30/12 10:48am
Msg #441264

Re: Law requires "date" I would think that the phrase:

"the date you received this notice of your right to cancel" would satisfy that requirement.
That said, absent specific instructions to the contrary, i fill in the "correct dates' and have the signer initial.

Reply by sueharke on 10/30/12 10:48am
Msg #441265

Re: Actually,i do not believe that the dates need to be"correct"

How does this affect BofA saying not to change the dates on the RTC for their loans? I would give the signers their copies with the correct dates. What would other notaries do?

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/30/12 12:45pm
Msg #441281

Follow lender instructions

Lender instructions take precedence. If BofA doesn't want dates changed, don't change.

Occasionally, I run across lender instructions that say the borrowers must sign their copies. So, OK, I have them sign their copies, something I don't do ordinarily cos Hugh, ReneeK, Linda are correct on this issue.

Reply by Barb25 on 10/30/12 4:17pm
Msg #441327

Re: Follow lender instructions

Lender instructions take precedence. A great idea. I thought we addressed this yesterday. But maybe not.

For me, this is one of those forms that there are so many opinions about (including lenders) that I always ask if there is any question. Then I take names, follow the instructions. End of story. Another issue: In the case of a 2 part signing: Do you just change the midnight date or the midnight and transaction date... Aha. I have gotten 2 different answers from same lender.... So it does not matter what I think or what is regulation from the standpoint of the signing agent... Let them fight it out later on. I call. I get a name and their answer and THAT is how I proceed. It is not my job to educate the lender and/or the title company. Just do my job, get it signied to their satisfaction and get paid.

Do with that comment what you will.

But it comes back to Follow Lender Instructions.

Reply by Barb25 on 10/30/12 3:16pm
Msg #441315

OMG n/m