Posted by Carolyn Breckenridge on 10/7/12 11:05am
Msg #437507

How long does it take to do a closing?

I think this an extremely interesting subject to discuss.

I personally would like to sit in on a closing where a lender file takes less than 30 minutes to complete. I want to see how that is done. It usually takes an hour at the least depending on questions and interruptions. Certainly, Quicken loans take a shorter time. But the normal lender files I don't see how. I don't usually get the packages in time to pre-fill in the notary clauses. I most generally print and run. I do not notarize later and this is a practice I don't want to get into.

I have also found that closing in a office setting takes less time. You have the undivided attention of the borrowers. That depends on whether they bring their children or the other parties to the transaction are in attendance.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/7/12 11:47am
Msg #437515

"I do not notarize later and this is a practice I don't want to get into."

Good idea, Carolyn - that would be illegal in Florida..

And I disagree with the notarize later theory for all the reasons that have been discussed over time - the most critical one being you never know what's gonna happen once you leave that closing.

Also, as I've stated, my closings are minimum one hour - heck, it takes me 10 minutes just to get set up at the table with borrowers in attendance. I've had a handful quicker than an hour but the norm is minimum one hour - and I'm not ashamed of it.

Reply by Carolyn Breckenridge on 10/7/12 11:59am
Msg #437517

I am not ashame of it either. It is what it is. I had a VA closing recently and by the time that we got through their whole package they were exausted from all the signing. Usually when I am completing the notary acknowlegement on the previous document, I am giving them a brief explanantion of what the next document is. I just don't know how it can be done any quicker than that.

I would like to see how.

Reply by Barb25 on 10/7/12 11:47am
Msg #437516

I think most of what you said is correct as prepping your docs and interruptions. Questions by borrowers and unforseen "discrepancies" on the file or HUD can slow things down. Borrowers who want to read the 1003. Little things. Anyhow, I find that when you do singings for the same lenders over and over they just go much more quickly because you know the package so well and are so used to explaining the documents it is like second nature. You have even heard most if not all of the questions that can arise. Anyhow, that is what I find.

Yes, you are right, you fill in names/dates and such prior to signing. Sign and stamp (notarize) at the signing. But none of this can be done after the signing. Of course if any of that info is incorrect.. you'll be pulling copies from the borrowers copy. LOL.

Reply by bfnotary on 10/7/12 1:03pm
Msg #437523

I myself, always notarize and fill in journal at the table. The only time I do things different is on days I am slammed with back to back signings. I sometimes pre fill in the acks. And only one time did I fill in the names, dates on acks after signing. And that was only because this signing for the borrowers was 6 hours later than it was supposed to be due to late docs and they were in such a hurry to get somewhere. So I only did it for them. I would say maybe 2 days a month, (at the end) I have either pre filled in acks, or did it after signing. On average my signings are about 45 minutes to an hour. accept quicken of course. If those take me more than a half hour, something must be going wrong with signing. But yes if there was a way to do 30 minute signings, and have them be legal, someone please fill me in.

Reply by Barb25 on 10/7/12 1:28pm
Msg #437532

I guess we all of our system.. whatever works, right?

PegiT... Chase HARP/SuperHARPs... most I have done are 80 to 95 pages. Never took more than 30 or so minutes. Lately, the biggest time "thief" is that borrowers do not understand the HUD.. where there are no closing costs... especially where there is an escrow account that has been used to pay down the old loan. And now it is being put back into escrow with the new loan. OH, boy. Sometimes there it is in the package.... written out nice and neatly for the borrower to understand. Sometimes not.... Sometimes I use the "professional approach" I draw pictures.


I don't know if Citibank HUD looks different.

Reply by PegiT_MN on 10/7/12 1:14pm
Msg #437528

I conduct a lot of Citibank HARP/HARS super streamline loan closings and I can usually get through them in 25 minutes. The entire package is roughly 80 pages and there are are only three notarizations in the entire package. Please keep in mind that another reason some of these closings are possible to get done in 25-30 minutes is because I may be doing 5 of these same things a day.....Citibank, Wells Fargo, Bank of America, Chase, and US Bank....I've got most of those pages memorized......so it's easy to say the same thing over and over again and perfect your presentation. Some of my closings are with title companies and lenders that I am not familiar with their documents, their disclosures, or their order. I may have a gigantic closing package, a reverse mortgage, or a VA loan. These circustances are out of my normal routine and I'm definitely going to be at least an hour on these.

The secret to a short closing is organization, control, strategic planning, pointing, talking, keeping the papers moving, keeping their undivided attention at all times, and knowing your audience before you get to their home. I contact the borrowers in advance confirming the closing, I ask them if the lender has reviewed their numbers with them, and I ask them to have their MN drivers license ready for me to review, and to also make a copy of them for me as well. This initial telephone call is going to tell you a lot about your borrower. "Yes, yes, yes, no problems, we already made the copies, we've been through this before, I work for a bank".....you know it's going to be a smooth closing...in and out in 25 minutes. "We haven't gotten our numbers yet, there is a problem, why do you need a copy of our drivers license, are we going to be able to read everything before we sign"....you know it's going to be a long closing.....so get ready to settle in.

When I get to the closing, I typically sit at the head of the dining room/kitchen table and have borrower to the right of me and co-borrower to the left of me. Sometimes the borrowers will want to sit at the kitchen counter, or in the living room and sign on the coffee table. This is where you say, I think it will be much easier if we sit at the dining room/kitchen table. I always maintain control of the closing. Once you give control to the borrowers......your 25 minute window is just that.....out the window. I then say "Mr. Smith you are going to sign everything as John G. Smith and Mrs. Smith you are going to sign everything as Jane L. Smith. I am going to pass to you Mr. Smith, you can sign your name, and then pass to Mrs. Smith and then Mrs. Smith you can sign your name and then flip right here" (and I point to the left side of my file folder which is directly in front of me). "We can get through this in about 20 minutes". (I tell them this because I know that the mound of paperwork sitting in front of us looks very overwhelming to the borrowers and them thinking that they only have to sit there for 20 minutes......less than the time it takes for a comedy show.....and then go on with whatever they were doing sounds very manageable and I can typically get their undivided attention knowing it is going to go fast for them. An hour of their time sounds dreadful and then they seem to sit there like a kid not wanting to do their homework......20 minutes they can see the light at the end of the tunnel so to speak). Sometimes the closing may end up taking us a full hour, but the borrower never seems to mind because you have kept it going for them and they forget about the time. As you pass the papers along and explain the documents, it is very important to pay atention to their actions....to their body language. Are they listening to what you are saying and nodding in agreement and signing, are they ready for you to pass another page to them, are you saying too much and they just want to sign, are you not saying enough and they look confused. I had an attorney once that did not want me to say anything.....he only wanted to sign.....I was in and out in 15 minutes. I have had a few borrowers who wanted to read every single word, discuss it with their spouse, each one sign the page before we moved on to the next page.......those are about 2.5 hours.

I was a mortgage broker for ten years, I owned my own mortgage company, and I went to every single one of my closings. I could do a closing in my sleep......meaning that I have listened to every single word those closers used when describing the documents, and I have memorized it and used it in my own closings. I have learned how to notarize at the table while the borrowers continue to sign their documents. Those closers were backed up and had people in and out of those closing rooms in 30 minutes. They had a schpeel for every document presented to the borrowers and I have just picked up on that and basically memorized it. I will give you some examples of the verbage that was used.

MORTGAGE: "This is a standard Minnesota mortgage, it's going to get recorded with Dakota county and place a lien on your property, its 16 pages and you're both going to initial the bottoms of pages 1-14, sign page 15, and you are going to initial page 16. This basically states that you are going to make your payments each month, keep up with your taxes and insurance, no hazardous waste on the property, if you don't make your payments your bank can foreclose on you. Do you have any questions?" So while they are initialing pages 1-14 and signing page 15, I am filling out the vesting portion, signing my name, and notarizing on page 16.

NOTE: "This is one of the most important pages we are going to sign today. Here is your loan amount, here is your interest rate, your first payment is not due until December 1st, you are on a 30 year fixed rate loan, and here is your principal and interest amount because that never changes.....taxes and isurance can change......principal and interest never changes, and on page two here it states that if you make your payment after the 15th day of the month you will have a 5% penalty of the principal and interest payment. And you are going to sign your name right here".

I have a "schpeel" for every document presented to the borrowers and I have perfected it over the years. If anyone has any questions on the presentation of a particular document, just ask me and I will "recite" it for you. Also, if you have any suggestions on how you present some of the documentation, please let us know. I am always looking for new and better ways to present the loan documents during my closings.

Reply by JPH13/MO on 10/7/12 1:30pm
Msg #437533

We don't do closings, we do signings prior to the closing

In the good old days they were called closings because the funds would actually be dispersed at the end (for purchases not refis) once everything was signed, and they were conducted at a title company or attorney's office (at least in Illinois and Missouri when I was a real estate broker).

It is a pet peeve of mine that notaries call what we do a closing, since that is not what we are doing. The actual closing takes place once they receive the signed docs from us and after any right to rescind has passed.

Reply by PegiT_MN on 10/7/12 1:44pm
Msg #437537

Re: We don't do closings, we do signings prior to the closing

No offense or anything, but I think you are taking this closing vs. signing definition way to literally. It may be a pet peeve of yours that notaries are calling what we do a closing....but that is what the lenders, title companies, and signing companies are calling it as well. LSI calls me.....she says.....Peggy can you do a closing for us on October 9th in Apple Valley?

It's like the time I posted on here I was glad that Minnesota didn't require me to have a "seal". I meant that I was glad that Minnesota didn't require me to have that large shiny cumbersome metal apparutus that you squish together to make a raised impression on the document. Some jerk on here had to correct me and make me feel stupid and say that Minnesota does require me to have a seal.....no Minnesota lets me use a stamp.

Reply by Barb25 on 10/7/12 2:26pm
Msg #437549

And Yet..

The HUD refers to the Signing Date also as the Settlement Date. And then we see the Settlement Date... (I guess that might be the Closing Date, right). Where or where does it end?

Peggy? You knew what they meant, right?

Reply by Barb25 on 10/7/12 2:57pm
Msg #437556

Re: And Yet..

Disbursement date

Reply by JPH13/MO on 10/8/12 11:53pm
Msg #437738

Re: And Yet.. yes I meant disbursed not dispersed lol n/m

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/7/12 1:47pm
Msg #437539

THANK YOU, JPH13/MO - 5 Star Post

I thought I was the only one with that pet peeve. They will continue to say they have a "closing", yet use the label NSA - Notary SIGNING Agent. Maybe one or two out there actually close loans but the other 98% are NOT loan "closers".

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/7/12 2:00pm
Msg #437541

Nope, you're not the only one...

I am bothered by that, too. We do NOT handle closings. We only facilitate one small part of the closing process, and it's not even the entire "signing" if you think about it, because often, there are additional signatures that need to be obtained or extra compliance documents added before a a true closing process can begin.

Reply by PegiT_MN on 10/7/12 2:01pm
Msg #437542

You learn something new every day!

I never really stopped to think about the closing vs. signing thing. Now it's going to be like that "Can you borrow me some money" thing. I hate it when people say that......"Can you borrow me some money"? OMG.....that is my worst pet peeve......that and we "warsh" our clothes in the "crick".

Reply by jba/fl on 10/7/12 9:09pm
Msg #437608

Re: You learn something new every day!

no - "we "warsh" our clothes in the" zink.

drives me nuts.

I will borrow your money all day long if you will let me.

Reply by janCA on 10/8/12 8:51am
Msg #437631

Re: You learn something new every day!

"Warsh", it's a midwest thing. When I moved to CA almost 40 years ago, I was corrected constantly. I finally got it. I began "washing" my clothes after that. But my family back in Kansas still "warsh" theirs. Ha!

Reply by JPH13/MO on 10/7/12 2:18pm
Msg #437545

Re: THANK YOU back LKT/CA! n/m

Reply by PegiT_MN on 10/7/12 2:25pm
Msg #437548

Thank You LKT/CA & JPH13/MO

I'm on board too...."signings" it is......no more "closings" for me. Notary Rotary is so awesome and I love it when we can come here and help each other as we all continue to grow in this ever changing industry.

Reply by Barb25 on 10/7/12 1:30pm
Msg #437534

Comment above to you.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/7/12 1:49pm
Msg #437540

Loan signing magic!

PetT, I loved your post. You are an astute observer of human behavior when it comes to loan signing! The MN mortgage and note speils are perfect: professional, informative and quick. Tho when I get to the "hazardous waste" part I usually say "no funny stuff in the back yard." I live in meth country, so they know what I mean. I do want to add tho that I usually have the borrowers sit side by side so they can look at the docs together. My observation is if they're sitting across the table from each other then only one at a time can see what you're talking about and one is always twisting their neck to see the docs.

Your prep work and how you take control of the signing is great. I wish I had read this when I was a newbie!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/7/12 3:50pm
Msg #437566

Re: Loan signing magic!

I'm with you, Goldgirl, on the seating. Otherwise, I feel like I'm at a tennis game with my head on a swivel. I have the first signer sit at the head of the table and the 2nd signer sit across from me. That also usually gives us a place to put the signed docs in the middle (where I can easily reach them), with the BO copy (and my stamp, etc.) on my side away from the borrowers' reach. The documents can then flow in a nice circle and I can see everything that's going on at once, without having to keep turning my head.

I typically complete the notary certs as much as possible before the appointment, so as I'm introducing new pages for them to sign, I'm signing and stamping and making entries in my journal, and filling out Patriot Act forms, etc. In a reasonable size package, I also start to double check the signed docs as we get to the end and frequently can have all that done at about the same time that we finish signing. Also, for some reason it seems like the packages with the most forms for the borrowers to complete also have the most notarizations, so it often works out well for me to do all the misc. notary work while they fill out the SOI and other escrow/title docs.

I have one more little trick that some may think is silly, but it works for me... Years ago, I cut out some long strips of cardboard about 1" wide from the back of a legal pad and I use those as markers (or placeholders). So while I'm completing my notarization, I slip one of those onto the signed pile for each doc to be notarized, to keep things going and easily put the fully notarized page back where it was. I call those "my favorite high tech device", which usually gets a chuckle from the borrowers (if they have any sense of humor... )

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/7/12 4:06pm
Msg #437573

Re: Loan signing magic!

You know, I have have about 5 pre-designed seating arrangements depending on the setup of the house or location, and ultimately, whether the signers are right or left handed.

Maybe it's because I'm left handed and I'm more conscious of it, but I have to set things up differently to work more efficiently for myself in a right-handed world. A lot of righties are completely oblivious to the simple challenges we deal with, and sitting at a table with others is one of them.

And yes, I will ask the borrowers of they are right or left handed before we sit down. The right-handed people always look at me funny but the lefties want to hug me.

Reply by LORNA DENT on 10/8/12 1:09pm
Msg #437676

My signings go alot like PegiTMN signings do, I have done so many of them and with so many different companies, I have developed a process, I take control and I know most of the documents and what is one them. My signings typically take 30-45 min. I have had a few that take longer but usually they stay in my normal range. I notarize there I don't pre-notarize as it would be wrong, I don't typically fill in any information before getting to the signing either I do everything there. I have been doing this for about 8 years not and usually you have some kind of system down after the first year and you just make adjustments as you need them. I think the longest signings I have had have been a couple of hours and this was due to the borrowers wanting to read every single page and having to deal with little kids running around interrupting, but those long signings are pretty rare....I think I get maybe one a year.

Reply by LKT/CA on 10/7/12 1:37pm
Msg #437535

Maybe the 30 minute signings are done by those notaries where a journal is not required nor does their state require specific ack/jurat wording. They don't have to review the cert wording or add loose certs to non-compliant wording. No journal entries and complete whatever cert wording is included - I can see how a signing can take 30 minutes.

Reply by PegiT_MN on 10/7/12 1:47pm
Msg #437538

LKT is Very Correct.

I would never want to be a closer in California. There is no way you could get through a closing in 30 minutes with all that extra stuff you have to do. Minnesota does not require all of that.

Reply by Linda Juenger on 10/7/12 2:22pm
Msg #437547

If I get pkg in enough time, I do fill out what I can ahead. I fully notarize at the table. If I don't have the docs in time, I skip the journal at the table and do that later to save the borrowers some time. It is not required in IL. I do have them sign my journal though and tell them I will complete the rest later. My signings generally take 45 min to an hour. I am rarely there more than that unless there are # problems and we have to call someone. When confirming I do tell them to plan on an hour. To save a little time if they are crunched for time, I save the ID aff for later also.

Reply by 101livescan on 10/7/12 2:27pm
Msg #437550

This is a great thread...mostly I'm asked if I can handle a SIGNUP on such and such a day, such and such a time.

I call the borrower if I am to work out the signing date/time. "I'm your notary, Cheryl Elliott. I'm calling to see what date/time is available to you for me to come and have you sign your loan REFI docs. We will be signing and I'll be collecting copies of your DLs." I let them know at the signing that they have the three day right to rescind/cancel, and following those three business days, the escrow officer will fund and record, called the settlement date, when all monies are disbursed, old loan is paid off, and any cash out will be sent in form of a check or be wired to their account.

Some people will ask, "can't we fund tomorrow, I agree to waive the rescission period." No, no can do. It's a federal law that the lender must observe the three day right to cancel.

For children attending the signing: I have crayons, coloring books, and toys/puzzles to keep them focused away from the signing table.

I prefer the office environment. Sometimes it's the dining room table and that works.

Last week it was a completely cluttered living room, signing surface was a coffee table with lots of newpapers, junk mail, empty, dirty dishes with dried spaghetti sauce and proliferation of cat hairs everywhere. I almost tripped on the way out on the front porch over a dirty mop and pail and gardening shoes. I actually told the couple had I known they weren't ready for me, we could have met at the hotel across the street and signed in the business center, cleaner, no clutter, no distraction from loud TV, cat hair.

I usually tell the client that it shouldn't take more than an hour, but usually a half hour, 45 minutes.

By the way, I do a lot of Union Bank loans (1 notarization of DOT), Wells Fargo (DOT, Signature Name Affidavit and Correcton Agreement), and a local bank that has no more than two documents for notarization, like 60-75 pages. These do not take more than 30 minutes.

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/7/12 7:22pm
Msg #437591

I also sit the borrowers in to my right and accross from me and pass the papers in a circular pattern. I have the co borrower hand me the paper and I check it for completeness and correctness, then I put it upside down beside me. I double check as I go.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/7/12 7:36pm
Msg #437593

I might rethink saying this

"It's a federal law that the lender must observe the three day right to cancel."

Not necessarily true...the 3 days CAN be waived under certain circumstances - and has been. It's something the borrowers need to work out with the lenders in advance.

Reply by PegiT_MN on 10/7/12 7:50pm
Msg #437598

Re: I might rethink saying this

I do believe you are correct Linda as I have seen disclosures included in some loan packages that the borrower can sign if they are not going to exercise their right to the three day right to cancel.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/7/12 7:53pm
Msg #437599

It can be waived in the case of dire financial

emergency, which borrowers have to document (extreme financial distress, foreclosure, etc); it can be waived if it's a same lender loan and no additional principal is taken; probably many other reasons, but all at the discretion of the lender

Reply by PegiT_MN on 10/7/12 7:54pm
Msg #437600

Re: It can be waived in the case of dire financial

LOL.....I just googled it and read the exact same thing. Let's just hope the author of the article is correct.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/8/12 5:30am
Msg #437627

I'm not sure what "author" you read...my info is

from the FDIC - Regulation Z....Section 226.15 (e)

http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/6500-1500.html#fdic6500226.15

Reply by Karla/OR on 10/7/12 2:42pm
Msg #437553

I have read so many posts that have such small packages to complete. I can see how they can be done in short time. How do I get those assignments???!!! ha ha

I can only remember a couple of times when the package was 90-100 pages! Mine are typically from 140 and up to 200 pages. I push the paperwork to the BO as fast as I feel they can handle it - when they are passing off one signed doc to the 2nd BO then I am handing them the next doc to be signed and/or read. From the time I arrive, and get set up, I am usually out the door in 1.5 hours.

Mine are typically last minute docs and so its print and run - I have to review the instructions at the table, with the BO looking on, before getting to the documents themselves. I always do the notary sections at the table but there have been a couple of times where I did the first one, showed the BO and got their approval to finish the rest because of the BO's time constraints. I never head straight to the FedEX/UPS store immediately after a signing. I review the docs again before letting lose of them.

Reply by ToniK on 10/7/12 5:08pm
Msg #437580

My signings avg 30 mins. Very few are 60 mins. I live in a fast paced, how long is this gonna take environment. I tell BO, signing can be quick as 30 mins or long as 60 mins if you have issues or questions. Most Bo's I have area already aware of their loans and have already received the HUD. I usually tell them if they have any questions please contact their LO and have him answer it before I get there.

Most of my loan packages range between 120-140 pages and 80 pgs are roughly the ones needing signed. The ones that dont need to be signed I keep in envelope. I put all identity/identification docs on top and fill those out along with my journal. Sometimes I prefill the notary acks with missing State/Venue. My state notarial working is pretty simple and one liners so I dont have to fill out much. Just sign and stamp. And alot of the companies I work for prefill the BO's name and date of the signing. I really love when they do that.

For example:
The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this ___ day of ___, 20 _____ by
_____________________________.

The foregoing instrument was subscribed and sworn
before me this ___ day of ___, 20 _____ by
_______________________________________

Plus all notarized docs are usually placed together and mostly title docs.

Reply by bfnotary on 10/7/12 7:36pm
Msg #437592

are you saying you only show the docs that need signed?

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/8/12 12:35pm
Msg #437668

Why would you show them docs that don't need to be signed? Unless they contain some user friendly info that they might actually be interested in .... in which case, I wave them in front of them and if they're interested they can take a look.

Reply by Karla/OR on 10/7/12 8:47pm
Msg #437604

I have the same question regarding the docs you keep in the envelope - you do that for any that do not need to be signed??? Just clarifying. I, too, love it when the docs are pre filled!!!

Reading all the different ways notaries do their signing has sure helped me pick up a few pointers that will possibly move my signings along faster.