Posted by 101livescan on 10/4/12 8:16am
Msg #437137

Speaking of renewing notary commission

I'll be seeing you soon, Joan B. I will be renewing my commission for the 11th four year term soon.

I've noticed on this board lately there are a lot of new notaries in their first term. A couple of you are friends. I would caution you to read, reread and reread your State's handbook to make sure you know the nono's of a notary's duties in your specific state.

California is one of the toughest states in the US to obtain your commission.

We cannot practice law, give advice, express our opinions about documents, notarize incomplete documents, notarize documents which are not signed by the person or agency who originated the documents because they can never appear before us, AND BIGGY, the person whose signature is being notarized must personally appear before us, always. They may have signed the document prior to meeting us, they just sign it again at the time of notarization or state they signed the document and it is their intent the document be notarized. Paper identificaton is used for both acknowledgements and jurats always in CA NO MORE PERSONAL KNOWLEDGE (2005).

Here's a biggy. The escrow/title company sends you blank acknowledgements in a loan package for you to complete and send with the signed package...do you do that? ASK YOURSELF, what will that blank acknowledgement be attached to, and how will you explain it if you are asked for a copy of your journal and that particular document had a loose certificate with your notary seal on it saying you notarized that document (grant deed, quit claim deed, etc.), but you never laid eyes on it.

Do you have culpability here. You bet your sweet bippy you do. None of us has sufficient E&O to cover the potential lo$$. Especially in Santa Barbara county of CA.

So, a word of caution to all you new notaries out there, reread your notary handbook. It is becoming increasingly apparent that not everyone understands the no-nos that we must be careful about as we execute the duties of our official capacities as notaries public.

I'm looking over other states requirements for becoming a notary, and pretty much is a nominal app fee for 4-5 or even 10 year terms. No background check, no exam, no common sense, reasonability test.

Oh, my. What kinds of lawsuits are on the horizon by uninformed, unknowledgeable notaries out there who are clueless about their accountability.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/4/12 8:29am
Msg #437143

The biggest trick to getting a notary commission in my county is to bring quarters and nice crisp dollar bills. This is because when you go to the county courthouse, you will have to put quarters in the parking meter, or if all the spaces are full, buy a parking permit in the unattended city parking lot. The machine that sells the tickets takes dollar bills so long as they are in good shape.

No matter what state you are in, if you are accustomed to working in a rural area but have to go to the city to renew, remember to do all the things you have to do to park in a city: bring coins, & bills, and take all that stuff out of the bed of your pickup so it doesn't get stolen. Remove or cover up anything valuable in the passenger compartment.

Reply by 101livescan on 10/4/12 8:46am
Msg #437146

Unfortunately, that seems to be our national landscape these days. Lots of vandalism, theft, suicides, overdoses. Met with a Psyche Nurse yesterday. She says the walls of the facility are bulging with new patients every day. More than they can handle.

Reply by HisHughness on 10/4/12 11:03am
Msg #437158

The one critical thing to renew a Texas commission ...

... which can be done by mail, is a mirror. It is to make sure you are still breathing.

Texas standards for notaries are somewhat lax.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/4/12 11:02am
Msg #437157

<<Oh, my. What kinds of lawsuits are on the horizon by uninformed, unknowledgeable notaries out there who are clueless about their accountability.>>

You're starting to sound like Marian: Nobody knows their job, we're all idiots (untrained or otherwise) everything is headed to court, we're all going to jail.

ENUFF!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/4/12 11:23am
Msg #437161

"You're starting to sound like Marian"

*snort*

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/4/12 11:34am
Msg #437164

BTW, GG.... the sad fact of the matter is that it's true. A lot of the state's notaries aren't doing their jobs properly. Just because you feel you're doing it right? Great... but even the Secretary of State thinks there's an issue and they said so in this year's newsletter. Remember the part that said a "large majority of journals are not completed correctly"?

It was on page 4... top of the upper right column.

http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary-newsletter-2012.pdf

So, it's not just *me* saying our state's notaries don't know how to do their jobs.

Reply by 101livescan on 10/4/12 1:00pm
Msg #437171

Well, all I can say is I could write a book about flawed loan documents by notaries who have no idea what they are doing, sign and notarize wrong stuff, or don't sign/notarize right stuff.

I do a lot of cleanup these days. I had one lady whose refi I signed tell me the last notary came to the signing with no borrower's copy, had her meet at a massage studio, and could not explain the TIL or the right to cancel, and did not supply the borrower with the right to cancel. The client had to call her loan officer and ask for these copies.

Now, I apologize if you don't like hearing these reports, but I can only tell you that if notaries don't get up to speed on how they are supposed to do perform their duties, they won't be getting much repeat business, and they're in for some rude awakenings.

AND, Marian is a relatively new notary professional, and while you may not like reading her posts, she's about the most skilled notary I am aware of. You can only learn from her posts, so draw back your whip. We're all here to learn.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/4/12 1:31pm
Msg #437176

I'm sorry that my posts are so inadequate to convey my position. I think your posts and Marian's posts, and in fact, most posts, are very informative, helpful, etc. whether one agrees with them or not. That is not the point. My point is that all too many of them - yours today included - end with this fearmongering that we're going to jail, we're going to court. What is the point of that? It degrades your post, it detracts from its credibility.

I am actually very interested in reports from the field about all the nightmares you and others deal with. I have often said that everything I know about being a notary I have learned on NR. I just wish it weren't necessary that all too many posts end with this henny penny mindset.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/4/12 5:00pm
Msg #437209

"I just wish it weren't necessary that all too many posts end with this henny penny mindset."


I wish it were that way, too... but in a way we have to blame the state for it. I just took my most recent renewal exam this summer and I swear to you that 60%+ of the questions focused on the minutia of fines and disciplinary actions. It drove me batty.

For example... if, during the course of your commission as a notary you are convicted of a felony... ANY felony, the judge in your case is required by law to confiscate your seal and send it, along with a copy of your conviction to the Sec of State.

This, of course, assumes the judge is even *aware* that you're a Notary. I wonder if there is some kind of requirement that we have to disclose this. Interesting thought. Not that I ever want to find out, of course. But it is interesting. State law says convicted felons cannot hold a notary commission. Let's say you are convicted of a felony, and continue to notarize because the judge failed to confiscate your seal. Oh, dear... all kinds of fun.

This isn't really covered in our handbooks too much, but it is in the code/law, and it was a topic covered in the exam I took. I'm not going to discuss the specific question asked, of course... but that was the general topic.

They really need to focus more on doing the job itself, IMO. Yes, disciplinary stuff stuff is important to know...especially in CA because it seems if you make one wrong move and you're in trouble... but if they taught people how to actually DO it right in the first place why would they have to worry about the punishments so much?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/5/12 3:05pm
Msg #437340

I think there are several ways of interpreting the increased focus on disciplinary actions in the notary exams and I take a different view. I think it's probable that that emphasis is to force people to study - or at least read - those sections of the handbook. I confess that, in the past, my attitude has been that I don't intend to commit any wrongdoing, so I focused more on the what-to-do and what-not-to-do vs. the penalties. It's also an effective way of making the test more difficult and screening out some people who don't take it seriously enough.

With the budget issues facing states these days (certainly CA) - including the SOS office - I seriously doubt that they have the staff or resources to go after notaries who may fall slightly short of perfection vs. the ones we so often run into whose work falls well under the standard (is it 70%?) to even pass the exam. And we know some do much worse than that, as we all too often see the evidence and "talk" about it here. (And that's undoubtedly just a fraction of what really goes on.)

Don't get me wrong... I still believe we should all constantly strive to improve and to do the best job possible, but I think most of the reminders, warnings, etc. coming from the SOS office are intended towards the flagrant abusers. That's just common sense, imo. Also, the vast majority of the notaries, probably not only in CA, are people who work in an office and do primarily general notary work. Many just notarize the same kinds of documents over and over again.

These folks are a notary as a sideline to their primary occupation or job focus and may see using their notary stamp as just one more step in completing a task. They're not thinking about it like we do. And I believe these are primarily the people the SOS has in mind with most of their directives and newsletters. Signing agents represent a small percentage of the total.

Reply by GaryT/CA on 10/4/12 11:24am
Msg #437163

"... AND BIGGY, the person whose signature is being notarized must personally appear before us, always. "

Not if they use a "subscribing witness".
I took Joan's Notary commission class, loan signing class, and studied the handbook.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/4/12 12:16pm
Msg #437168


Look, I’m just a simple country notary who’s really tired of all this huffing and puffing about CA notaries who don’t know how to do their jobs, don’t know their handbook, and whose required education class was inadequate and how we’re all going to end up in court or go to jail as a result. Jail. court, jail, court. Your words, not mine. I don’t subscribe to the sky is falling approach to doing my job as a notary, and I also don’t believe that only a self-appointed few know what they’re doing. As far as I can tell, CA notaries are not any better or worse than notaries from other states, despite all our required education, training, testing and background checks. And even with all that, we will never measure up to the standards set by certain circles (circles in which I do not run).

I think the body of Cheryl’s e-mail is an excellent summation of many things a good notary needs to know; it represents years of knowledge and experience. Newbies and veterans alike who are fotunate enough to see her post today can all benefit greatly. But it is counterproductive to take it further and hyperventilate into the “Oh, my” stratosphere of pending litigation and gloom and doom with the not so subtle implication that only a few know what they’re doing. If other states don't want to regulate or oversee their notaries, then it is what it is. Why imply they're headed to judicial armageddon and are taking notaries down with them? Why say notaries are "clueless"? It’s getting tiresome. As I said, ENUFF

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/4/12 12:35pm
Msg #437169

I'm not sure where you get the idea where I've said that education classes aren't sufficient. I don't think that.

I've said that I don't believe that the exam should be allowed to be taken immediately after a love class. I believe there should be a period of time between course completion and the exam date in order to allow to for study and reinforcing of course material to retain it.

All of the courses taught are taught with materials that are pre-approved by the Sec of State, which means the material is sufficient. That's not the point. The point that I've always made is that there simply isn't any time for the student to commit the material learned in to their long-term memory. They take that class, immediately take the test and then they're done. Then, they wait for months for their commission and then have no clue what to do next.

I get that it's convenient. For the vast majority of people obtaining these commissions, it's a work requirement and they really only have a Saturday to do it and it's a royal PITA for them to do it. I get that. But in the long wrong, it's also a disservice because, as the Sec of State themselves said, there is a BIG problem because they know a lot of their notaries don't know how to do their jobs. So obviously, there's a problem in there somewhere. I believe that *one* of the solutions to the problem is eliminating the the ability to take the exam on the same day of the class. That's just *MY* opinion. I realize that a lot of people don't agree with that and it would inconvenience a few people. It would certainly tick off a few vendors... but that's not my concern. I'm not about the money or the convenience. If I cared about the money, I wouldn't be in this business.

Reply by 101livescan on 10/4/12 1:10pm
Msg #437173

You're right, subscribing witness is an exception. I've never done a subscribing witness notarization in my entire notary career, but you gotta know how to do it. Oath, etc.

Reply by SheilaSJCA on 10/4/12 6:55pm
Msg #437215

just to clarify, Subscribing witness cannot be used without

very restrictive guidelines being met, (desribed below)
Cannot to be used with deeds, mortgages, deeds of trust, security agreements.

Posting this just to clarify for any newbies, so there is no confusion:

Per pages 12-13 of the 2012 California notary Public Handbook:

The requirements for proof of execution by a subscribing witness are as follows:
• The subscribing witness must prove (say under oath) that the person who signed the
document as a party, the principal, is the person described in the document, and the
subscribing witness personally knows the principal (Civil Code section 1197); and
• The subscribing witness must say, under oath, that the subscribing witness saw the principal sign the document or in the presence of the principal heard the principal acknowledge
that the principal signed the document (Code of Civil Procedure section 1935 and Civil
Code section 1197); and
• The subscribing witness must say, under oath, that the subscribing witness was requested
by the principal to sign the document as a witness and that the subscribing witness did so
(Code of Civil Procedure section 1935 and Civil Code section 1197); and
• The notary public must establish the identity of the subscribing witness by the oath of a
credible witness whom the notary public personally knows and who personally knows the subscribing witness. The credible witness must also present to the notary public any identification document satisfying the requirements for satisfactory evidence as described in Civil Code section 1185(b)(3) or (4) (Civil Code section 1196); and
• The subscribing witness must sign the notary public’s official journal. The credible witness must sign the notary public’s official journal or the notary public must record
in the notary public’s official journal the type of identification document presented, the
governmental agency issuing the document, the serial number of the document, and the
date of issue or expiration of the document. (Government Code section 8206(a)(2)(C)
and (D))
Note: The identity of the subscribing witness must be established by the oath of a credible
witness who personally knows the subscribing witness and who is known personally by the notary public. In addition, the credible witness must present an identification document
satisfying the requirements of Civil Code section 1185(b)(3) or (4).

Reply by Stoli on 10/4/12 12:48pm
Msg #437170

…, and, the sky is falling, Henny Penny. n/m

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 10/5/12 12:24pm
Msg #437316

Armed with the handbook and our state statutes, we should all feel competent in our jobs; the fact is, though that EXPERIENCE is the best teacher.

I just wish sometimes I could bypass NR's California "Baywatch" series (wasn't there also a 'Miami Vice' San Francisco once?). Any long-timers here on the East coast?

p.s. I'm just exaggerating a little, but CA notary mayhem would (and does) "scare" me a little sometime. For me, the original "Baywatch" was fine (: