Posted by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 3:22pm
Msg #439230

Title co process improvement suggestion

With all the bulletins we receive about doing our jobs correctly, its a shame we can't send bulletins too. I can't understand why they don't request a copy of the ID when escrow is opened. That way they can see if it matches the vesting. When I sat an escrow desk, we always did this and thereby averted the possibility of a no-sign or redraw due to ID mismatch. I am hoping some title companies may read the board and consider this cost saving process improvement that would help us all so much.

Reply by signhere/ca on 10/19/12 3:47pm
Msg #439232

Totally agree! Always wondered why that isn't standard practice. Could you imagine how many headaches that would avoid for everyone involved! Only in a perfect world :-)

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 4:01pm
Msg #439234

The shame is that it would be a great customer service move. Those loan officers and processors work so hard to get the loan and the borrower goes through the hoops too. Who wants to tell those poor people we can't proceed because of ID issues. It just isn't in the best interests of the client and it wastes time and money for everyone else. Hopefully everyone will chime in on this board and perhaps title cos will reconsider the process.

Reply by Pro Mobile Notary on 10/19/12 4:12pm
Msg #439236

Sounds to me like the tail wants to wag the dog.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 4:22pm
Msg #439240

I don't follow you.

Reply by Pro Mobile Notary on 10/19/12 5:15pm
Msg #439251

You are in a service business.

The sole purpose for a signing agent or a signing service is to provide the services required by the one writing you the check.

If people do not want to provide the service being requested, they should consider getting a job pumping gas for a living. It is patently absurd to someone to suggest that they should be able to tell an escrow officer or title company how to do their job.

Is my perspective any clearer now?

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 5:19pm
Msg #439253

*Is my perspective any clearer now?*

Not really, PMN. I obviously agree that you have a point.

However, it would be very helpful to notaries on this if you could suggest a process so that helps them.

Telling them to pump gas is another example of not being helpful and demeaning the job that they do for you.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 5:20pm
Msg #439255

Correction

However, it would be very helpful to notaries on this if you could suggest a process (strike "so") that helps them (add --> )know how to mitigate a non-perfect match.

Reply by HisHughness on 10/19/12 5:26pm
Msg #439258

This is rude, unnecessary and damned offensive

The poster suggested something that would improve our profession. More than that, it would improve service to the BORROWER -- you know, the one we are ALL working for.

What a stupid, mean, benighted thing to say.

Reply by janCA on 10/19/12 5:35pm
Msg #439262

Re: This is rude, unnecessary and damned offensive

Welcome to Howard's, world, Hugh!

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 5:48pm
Msg #439267

That's Howard, alright. n/m

Reply by HisHughness on 10/19/12 8:57pm
Msg #439297

Usually I find Howard's contributions helpful. This was not. n/m

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 5:52pm
Msg #439268

Re: This is rude, unnecessary and damned offensive

Thank you Hugh. My post was genuinely made as a result of my frustration with the inconvenience to the borrowers and even the LO's. Thanks again.

Reply by JS_MD on 10/19/12 9:28pm
Msg #439301

My perspective is that you are a jerk PMN.

People like you are why I work for very few signing services. I have been in the business since 2004 and thankfully don't have to deal with clients who would equate my level of service to someone "pumping gas". My book of business is full of clients who respect me and appreciate the way I represent them. When a signing service offers lowball fees they get what they pay for.

Reply by JS_MD on 10/19/12 9:42pm
Msg #439303

PMN offered $70 4 an edoc refi 70 miles away last month.lol

No thank you.......another lowballer.

Reply by jba/fl on 10/19/12 10:18pm
Msg #439306

I am in a service business. I do what my client, the purchaser of my time, efforts, talent, knowledge requires - that is a given. I also go above and beyond. If I can see my way to let someone know of a technique that I have found to be superior to another method of doing the same task, I will impart that info in the hopes of being more efficient, productive, and pleasing to the overall situation. If one wishes to find fault with a suggestion, so be it. But, I will offer my findings as that is where I excel. I find solutions to problems; then I implement them. I don't stay downhill of my objective...

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 4:24pm
Msg #439241

Ronnie_WA

*When I sat an escrow desk, we always did this and thereby averted the possibility of a no-sign or redraw due to ID mismatch.*

What did you do to make that work out so that you had a "match" from vesting and title to ID?

I'm curious how you fixed that.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 4:27pm
Msg #439242

Re: Ronnie_WA

eg, borrower's middle name is on vesting but not on their satisfactory identification. Advise borrower they will need to provide ID in the name of "Jane Happy Camper" and tell them what satisfactory forms of ID are accepted. Escrow is opened long before the signing so it gives the borrowers time to get their ID fixed. Eg - go to DOL and get the middle name added to the license.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 5:00pm
Msg #439244

Re: Ronnie_WA

What if Jane Happy Camper is a former married or maiden name? Do you make Jane go get an ID in a name she has not used for years?

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 10/19/12 5:07pm
Msg #439245

Re: Ronnie_WA

Yes. Either that (in AZ) or a credible witness. In AZ one can get their DL same day. or title can choose to change the name on the docs.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 5:11pm
Msg #439249

Re: Ronnie_WA

In Texas, my experience is that the lender calls the shots on vesting. Not title.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 5:55pm
Msg #439269

Re: Ronnie_WA

Yes, our states are different. Here "vesting" means how the owner holds title as a result of the deed she received from the seller. Whatever the grantee clause is on that deed, that's how title is vested. The lenders DOTs always match the vesting they get from the preliminary title report. The prelim pulls the vesting from the deed vesting title in the owner. It is kind of interesting how the states are all different

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 6:04pm
Msg #439270

Re: Ronnie_WA

I was thinking of the time of purchase. Otherwise, yes, your scenario is close to ours.

In my experience, when a loan is involved at the time of purchase, the lender will tell the seller how to state the name of the buyer. The seller doesn't care. Seller just wants to sell. The Special Warranty Deed with Vendor's Lien is used when there is a mortgage.

It will state the name of the seller (as required by the lender) and the name of the lender and usually, the amount of the loan (i.e. "vendor's lien").

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 10/19/12 7:34pm
Msg #439286

buyer tells seller via sales agreement how they want vesting n/m

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 10/19/12 7:47pm
Msg #439287

sorry Brenda, must disagee- buyer/borrower decides vesting

I know things could be way different in TX but I would be surprised that a lender would be telling someone how to vest-they may insist on using the same vesting for refi's that was on original vesting deed. but unless unusual circumstances with names changes, ie, marriage, death, trusts, etc have occurred there would be no reason to use different vesting. Also, any of these changes that might be uncovered via the prelim and requiring correction would be instigated by title and/or lender(whoever catches first) and done with facilitation/direction of title, attorney, or both, and likely in concert with lender.
yes, yes, this is my opinion

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 7:54pm
Msg #439288

Re: sorry Brenda, must disagee- buyer/borrower decides vesting

Works the same way in WA as OR. Go northwest

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 11:41pm
Msg #439315

I have to ask you, why are you surprised?

I am surprised that you would say that.

Last time I checked, I was not one to pull ideas out of thin air. It is as I say it is in my experience. Lenders are loaning the money. They call 99% of the shots in my experience. Signing agents really can benefit from understanding that it is not always the lazy borrowers who do not get ID that notaries agree with.

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 10/20/12 12:56am
Msg #439320

Seems as though I hit a nerve-not my intention

Am I not allowed to disagree? I said it was my opinion and I also acknowledged that things may be different in Texas and I don’t doubt you speak from experience, as do I-over 30 years in lending as a processor, closer, UW, LO, appraiser, managing mortgage broker and even a short stint in R/E sales. And I respectfully submit that the buyer decides how they want to vest. They may seek advice of realtor, lender, attorney, the stars, whatever, but ultimately it is their decision. Obviously, if they wanted to vest in a name that is far off from their ID there would be issues and, as I said, title, lender, someone is going to raise the issue and it will be resolved…unless they are all asleep at the wheel. Thus the need for obtaining BO ID at the get go as raised by the OP. Every bank, credit union, brokerage I have worked for all required ID early on in the process of purchase or refi. Makes sense to me.

Who said anything about lazy borrowers?
Have a great weekend!

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/20/12 11:50am
Msg #439358

No, you said that you "would be surprised"

if what I had stated was accurate --after you said that it might be that way in Texas.

And, I am puzzled that it surprised anyone.

In TX there is an instrument used to convey title at the time of purchase **IF** there is going to be a loan on the property. It is called a Special Warranty Deed with Vendor's Lien. That deed is filed first, then the Deed of Trust. The SWD/VL gives notice of the lender's encumbrance so that the conveyance cannot be followed by another lien that is not the lender's.

The name in that deed matches the loan documents. According to the lawyers that I worked for,lawyers I worked with in other positions, and the the signature block manuals that I used (written by a Texas lawyer) the SWD/VL is going to match the loan documents 100% of the time. Law? I don't know. But, that's the way it is done to avoid adverse consequences for the lender; and, by all means, the name must be the borrower's exact name, which may or may not be on a DL or passport.

The lender, therefore, certainly does (in my experience) insert itself into the vesting. I don't want to get off further into the weeds on where a lender is not involved because that is not pertinent to to the point that I am trying to make.

Yours and Ronnie's surprise at this process sent me to do a little researching to check myself.

I found that one key in lender underwriting guidelines is making sure that documents are in the "legal names" of the parties (whatever that is).

I also found that there are plenty of parties who are unhappy over the "legal names" that they have been hung with at their lenders' insistence. One woman whose name was "Susan" had a loan in the name of "Sue" and another woman who had recently divorced was tagged with First Middle Maiden Married names when she had already changed her name legally back to her maiden name. Another instance is a foreign name changed to the order that an American name would be in. These types of names are what I meant as far as "doozies." At the closing table, you go along with the name or you delay the loan and argue...you may or may not win.

Borrowers really would benefit from having a lawyer review their documents.

As I think I mentioned, that First Middle Maiden Married name situation is a huge problem for me in producing ID with my long abandoned middle name given at birth. I found one example of that complaint online, as well.

Lazy borrowers? On this board we discuss regularly how the borrowers need to go get ID to match the vesting, but they have not taken care of business. I think that I mentioned that earlier. My participation in this thread was to try to explain that it's not always as easy as it sounds that ID should match loan documents.

ID and document name match doesn't always hinge (in my experience) on the beginning of the process when title is opened. The change can come in the last few days or hours (in my experience) when underwriting decides to throw a curve into it and change up the SWD/VL and the loan documents...and Heaven help the document prep person if it is a commercial loan.

Frankly, I don't know how anyone can sustain a signing agent business by requiring matches. I have not seen them more than 50% of the time.

I think that's about all I can offer on this topic.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/20/12 12:17pm
Msg #439365

When I did purchase closings in CT with mortgages

Seller's atty would ask how our clients wanted to take title and the answer always was "let me check" - and a call to the lender on how the loan docs would be - how did their borrower apply for the loan - that's what determined how the names would appear on the Warranty Deed and, therefore, on title.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/21/12 8:54pm
Msg #439595

Re: When I did purchase closings in CT with mortgages

Thanks, Linda. No matter how we slice it here in Texas, there's going to be input from the lender on the WD.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 5:08pm
Msg #439246

Re: Ronnie_WA

No, because, in that instance, it is the vesting that now needs correction.

I will prepare a Quitclaim Deed: "Jane Happy Sailor, a married woman who acquired title as Jane Happy Camper, a single woman, hereby grants, conveys.... yada yada .... to "Jane Happy Sailor, a married woman as her sole and separate property".

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 5:33pm
Msg #439261

Thank you, Ronnie. I appreciate your patience.

My only comments: Hopefully, the borrower who has presented adequate ID to state who he or she is does not have to bear the expense of the preparation of a quitclaim deed.

Quitclaim deeds are usually not worth much in Texas for this purpose; special warranty deeds or warranty deeds are favored.

Like I said, lenders call the shots on vesting in my experience. They come up with some doozies that no borrower / purchaser / seller should be required to acquire perfectly matching ID for. Notaries, in my humble opinion, must use some logic to make conclusions about whether or not they have a fraud, or a genuine signer. It's not that hard for me to make those conclusions.

Also, lenders have seen the ID before they spit out the docs...so have title companies...in my experience.

Thank you again.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 5:47pm
Msg #439266

Re: Thank you, Ronnie. I appreciate your patience.

Your comments are appreciated. Unfortunately in my state, notaries are not given the ability to use the discretion of a reasonable person in the identification process. Our regulations need to be changed as they're quite short-sited and the DOL is aware of their limitations. I'm awaiting the next rules committee meeting to see if we can get some reasonable changes implemented. I'm not holding my breath as committee meetings have been suspended due to budget concerns.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 5:08pm
Msg #439247

PS - I have many years experience in legal/title/mortgage

Never have I experienced a lending officer, or an escrow assistant or title officer recommending that a borrower/seller/buyer go get ID to match vesting. Never.

Never have I been told that I had to go get ID to match vesting/title. Five times I have sold property in a former name with current ID. One time I purchased and had a mortgage wherein my middle name was required. I have no ID with my middle name on it. I had dropped it and added my maiden name decades before. If the lender wants it, that's fine. But, I am not going to get a DL or Passport to show that.

If a notary refused me because of these types of common name issues in a signing appointment, I would call the lender and insist on closing in a title office where the closers have experience with common title/vesting issues.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 5:10pm
Msg #439248

Re: PS - I have many years experience in legal/title/mortgage

Your state must be an exception wherein the notary is not required to obtain satisfactory identification that bears the name on the documents. I'm only addressiing states that do have this requirement.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 5:16pm
Msg #439252

Re: PS - I have many years experience in legal/title/mortgage

*Your state must be an exception wherein the notary is not required to obtain satisfactory identification that bears the name on the documents. I'm only addressiing states that do have this requirement.*

No. Notaries are required to properly ID a signer in Texas. "Matching" an ID to a document being signed is not required in any state laws, to my knowledge. It would be helpful to me to see laws in any state that require that.

Now, if a lender requires that match, the borrower needs to figure out how to get along with the lender or find a different lender altogether.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 5:20pm
Msg #439254

Re: PS - I have many years experience in legal/title/mortgage

In my state, the match is always required when a bank or a title insurance company is involved.

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 5:22pm
Msg #439256

Is that a lender law, title/insurance law, or notary law?

I am not trying to be difficult; I would like to have a cite of this requirement. I have never found one. I have looked and would be happy to add it to my body of research on this subject.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 5:30pm
Msg #439259

Re: Is that a lender law, title/insurance law, or notary law?

Eg, I'm looking at a major national bank's document right now where they ask me to certify that the name on the identification matches the name on the documents. Maybe they figure the notary should make sure the person appearing before them is indeed the person named in the documents. Just a guess. Couldn't quote you a statue or a regulation on that one for the bank. I can guarantee that the title officer will lay an egg if I tell him how to do his/her job.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 5:24pm
Msg #439257

Re: PS - I have many years experience in legal/title/mortgage

I can certainly notarize that Jane Camper appeared before me but, if that's not the name on the docs, neither the bank or the title company will accept my acknowledgment/jurat. The title company won't insure the transaction. They'll consider my work deficient.

Reply by HisHughness on 10/19/12 5:32pm
Msg #439260

Her problem is that you claimed a statutory requirement.

Now you are citing only a lender requirement.

That may be a lender requirement. But I agree with Brenda: I don't think that is a statutory requirement anywhere. Which nonetheless begs the question: Would it not be beneficial if LOs resolved ID issues before the loan left their hands? Seems to me that would serve the process all the way up the line.

Reply by Ronnie_WA on 10/19/12 5:41pm
Msg #439263

Re: Her problem is that you claimed a statutory requirement.

It would be great if the LO did, but I don't think that's going to happen. They're focused on making a sale. Sales people don't have the personalities for that type of detail. The title company is insuring the transaction and calling the shots on the insurability of the DOT. If I only put Jane Camper in the jurat, when the docs say Jane Happy Camper, then the title officer won't insure the DOT. Also, I can't complete any lender required certification that her ID matches the docs. In my state, the notary function is requlated by law. I'm not permitted to put Jane Happy Camper in the jurat if the identification only says Jane Camper. That would be misconduct. That leaves me in the position of not being able to meet the title and bank requirements. If I were allowed to simply complete the jurat/acknow with the name on the ID, I'd be the happy camper

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 5:47pm
Msg #439265

Re: Her problem is that you claimed a statutory requirement.

Just an fyi from my perspective...my experience is not with LOs coming up with names for vesting. They are out of the loop when the legal stuff that I worked on got sorted out.

I have had full sets of loan documents ready to roll and the lender would come back and change the names on the documents to something like I have previously mentioned. It is the lender's underwriting that makes these decisions (in my experience) and title has always complied with the changes in hundreds of mortgage and commercial loan documents (again, in my experience).

Reply by BrendaTx on 10/19/12 5:43pm
Msg #439264

Re: Her problem is that you claimed a statutory requirement.

*Would it not be beneficial if LOs resolved ID issues before the loan left their hands? Seems to me that would serve the process all the way up the line.*

Yes! But, the problem is that in their opinion, there is not an issue. Ronnie indeed presents a great idea for a perfect world.

My interest in this is not to put down Ronnie's suggestion, but to explain that reality is very different in most states and we deal with national companies. Case in point...the last mortgage that I signed was not a Texas lender. It said, "Brenda Middle Maiden Married." Four names.

I have nothing but a birth certificate and my and family members to verify that my middle name is what it is. The lender got it off of my birth certificate. The lender had my ID. The lender and title knew that there existed no such ID with my middle name. It was up to a notary to decide if I was lying about my ID, or not.

By sharing this example, I hope to help notaries understand that our jobs are not as cut and dried and we (or, the xyz) would like them to be. Sometimes, we have to use the ID that we have and make a decision.... at least *I* do.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/19/12 6:08pm
Msg #439271

Re: Her problem is that you claimed a statutory requirement.

I agree, Hugh. It all starts with how their name is set up on title to begin with. The problem there, though, is that LOs have their own ideas of what is considered supportive ID - and they're not the ones who will have to sign off on it (in some cases, under penalty of perjury). If they used a notary perspective when discussing the issue (if they even bother to do so) with the borrower, it could avoid a lot of future headaches for a lot of people.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/20/12 4:11pm
Msg #439399

A first for me last night...

I was delighted to see, for the first time, a Patriot Act form with the BO's driver license info already filled in - accurately, no less. Someone clearly had inspected the signer's ID way in advance of the signing appt. I had two in a row from the same lender (but different LOs), so at least one company gets it! Let's hope this becomes a trend!!

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 10/19/12 7:31pm
Msg #439285

My take on some of this!

I certainly realize things can be different across the country so I speak from the great state of Oregon ļ
1. PURCHASER/OWNER DETERMINES VESTING. when purchasing, buyer specifies in sales agreement how they want to take title. Of course, if their ID is vastly different from the sales agreement, then the buyer may need to amend the sales agreement or execute documents that satisfy the differences to the lenders satisfaction, or get new ID if its that important to them. I don't feel the need to discuss name variations here as that has been discussed numerous times.
2. REFI-vesting as show on the recorded deed is the preferable name on docs. This is not the lender telling them how to vest this is how BO decided to vest when they purchased. Again, if BO wants it to show differently, then docs will need to be executed to show the change. Lender that allow the Mtg/DOT to not match the vesting deed just makes more work for others on future loans or when property sells. I¡¦m guessing this happens because of ignorance or laziness on part of LO, processors, UW, escrow-pick one or blame them all as you wish ƒº
3. Competent LO¡¦s/Lenders/Realtors do require a copy of ID to avert these issues. I know I shouldn¡¦t be, but I am still amazed at the crazy stuff I see these days: LO¡¦s who never talk to their borrowers after the application, no communication from title and borrower ignorance of their loan, the loan process, fees, etc.

Alrighty, enough on that! Have a great weekend!!

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 10/19/12 7:57pm
Msg #439289

strange punctuation--cut and past from word :) n/m