Posted by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/6/12 7:04pm
Msg #437442

WTX????

Recently, I had a woman tell me the EO told her the loan signing would take 5 minutes... and there are three signers! Yikes! It takes me 5 minutes to get from the front door to the signing table and get everybodys' IDs going, not to mentiong logged in to the CA-required notary journal and t-printed. She was beside herself when I told her to plan on at least a half hour. Each of the 3 are headed out to dinner reservations after the "5 minute signing" and don't want to be late. I haven't been to this signing yet, but at least they'll be highly motivated!

Then, yesterday, a woman told me to park in the loading zone in front of her downtown bldg. Huh? She seemed to think we could get through a signing in just a few minutes so that I wouldn't get a ticket. When she asked how long it would take, I said no more than a half hour, and she was aghast. That long, she gasped?! And she was a lawyer!

What's going on? People think they can sign a mortgage in a few minutes? It takes longer than that to get through the checkout lane at Target.

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/6/12 7:25pm
Msg #437443

I tell them it takes an hour to an hour and a half depending on the size of the package and it does.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/6/12 7:27pm
Msg #437444

Me too, Buddy..I'm at least an hour at the table. n/m

Reply by sigtogo/OR on 10/6/12 7:33pm
Msg #437445

I always tell people to expect an hour. if we finish before

great but don't expect it. inevitably, the ones who want it to go quickly or say they don't need any explanations because they have done this so many times before, are the ones with lots of questions. gotta love 'em

Reply by ananotary on 10/6/12 8:11pm
Msg #437450

An hour signing is a LONG signing for me. n/m

Reply by MW/VA on 10/6/12 8:42pm
Msg #437452

I think that's how our "rush, rush, rush" high-speed

world thinks now. I hear complaints all the time about the amt. of paperwork & their needing to sign all those docs!
Since these are large financial transactions, I'm surprised that more people don't see the priority. Your clients are lucky if you only ask for a 1/2 hr. of their time. My signings take 1/2 hr. to 45 minutes for those extra large VA pkgs.
I really like your remark about the "checkout lane at Target". Maybe they could get one set up to do loan signings--who know's it might catch on! ;-) LOL

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/6/12 10:01pm
Msg #437454

Re: I think that's how our "rush, rush, rush" high-speed

I don't give advice, but I do tell the bo what they are signing. A 120 page package done in 30 minutes is 15 seconds a page. You guys must be point and sign people. The notarization of two signatures takes at least 5 - 10 minutes, that doesn't leave you much time to go through a loan package. I would like to know what you do to finish in 30 minutes.

Reply by Karla/OR on 10/6/12 10:26pm
Msg #437455

Re: I think that's how our "rush, rush, rush" high-speed

Agreed, I'm always amazed too when I tell them to confirm the appointment that they need to allow 1.5 hours, give or take. Then still, so many at the signing table still act like they have just run a marathon. The mental pressure must be killer for them!

Reply by Karla/OR on 10/6/12 10:26pm
Msg #437457

Whoops, meant "call" vs. "tell." n/m

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/6/12 11:18pm
Msg #437465

How dare you!

"You guys must be point and sign people."

If you're writing that about me, Buddy, that's libel.

In the first place, I've got the signing routine down pretty pat after years and years of doing this. I hit the Big Three at the beginning: Here's your settlement statement, you owe this or you're getting this back; here's your new monthly payment with or without impounds; and here's your note that shows what you're borrowing, the interest rate, first payment due date and loan term. Bada bing bada boom. Most people are already onboard, thank goodness. Then, I give them a one sentence intro to each of the following "paperwork" docs, and if they want more explanation, I'll give more.

I don't grandstand for the borrowers, showing them how much I know and how much I think they should know "for their own good." I don't give what I consider unnecessary encylopedic explanations of each doc. "This is your primary residence, it's not a second home or investment property"pretty much sums up an Occupancy Statement. That said and two people signing could just about be your 15 seconds. I don't play lil' lawyer, thinking that my role is bigger than it is. And I don't notarize at the table. If I have to notarize at the table, such as if I'm leaving the docs with the lender, I "dismiss" the borrowers after the signing so they don't have to sit through all that. (Sorry, FL notaries!).

A standard loan with a single signer normally takes under a half hour; for two people, a half hour of steady signing is plenty, IMO. Of course, if there are issues, problems, gigantic loans, things take longer. I just had a 90 minute ordeal cos of a nutso LO. Normally, I don't put up with that, but the borrowers were nice people and made great coffee.

If a standard signing is taking more than an hour, not to mention 1.5 hours!, something's seriously wrong (with the notary).... IMO, of course.

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/6/12 11:29pm
Msg #437467

Re: How dare you!

You don't notarize at the table, that explains it.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/6/12 11:59pm
Msg #437471

BTW, Buddy

I did not meant to insinuate that you or any other NR notary do all the awful things I described in my previous post! It's just that at one point during my last notary commission I had the opportunity to observe a wide variety of notaries and how they conducted signings. Quite frankly, I felt sorry for many of the borrowers. Many notaries would drone on and on.... they reminded me of the Peanuts TV specials where the teacher yaks and yaks, sounding like a muffled trumpet. Meanwhile, the borrowers' eyes would start to glaze over and they would try so hard to look interested and be polite, while their jaws tightened. I kept wondering what in the heck the notary was babbling on about! I resolved never to be like that. Also, I saw plenty of hotdoggers who spent half the signing showing off their ego for the borrower before they ever got down to business. One guy came in dressed like Roy Rogers and paraded around the room showing off his spurs. He then proceeded to tell the borrower that his wife needed to be there, even tho she was not on the loan or on title and never had been and then got into a big fight about it with him. Yech!

I don't notarize at the table because so many of the acks/jurats are noncompliant, as you know. So it takes me a while to get all that printed out, double and (in my case) triple checked. But mostly, I truly cannot do two things at once: guide a borrower through a loan signing, making sure everything's signed, initialed, filled out, etc. AND notarize, at the same time. Call me ADD. No can do. If I had to, I'd hang up my seal.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/7/12 12:23am
Msg #437473

Re: BTW, Buddy

Yeah, I think that does explain a lot...not notarizing at the table.

BTW... I'm not entirely sure that the Secretary of State approves of the process. Based on the letter they sent me....where they said the "journal entry must be completed at the time the notarial act is completed."

Which means if you've got to do it all at the same same time, including getting the signer's signature when they are there in front of you... so leaving the notarizations for later, seems, to me... to be a practice they don't approve of.

Now that's just my interpretation of the letter they sent me, which I have freely posted here. If you didn't see it before, here it is, completely unedited: www.highdesertnotary.com/casosletter0912.pdf

The background being that I asked them for a written opinion in whether we were allowed to issue a duplicate or replacement certificate if requested.

The letter has some very valuable and interesting information.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/7/12 1:16am
Msg #437477

That's very interesting, Marian.

I see your POV; however, my interpretation is exactly how I read in the SOS letter: I make a journal entry at the time the notarial act is completed. Completion of the notarial act is when I do the very last thing on the notarial certificate, whether that be stamp or sign. It may be hours from when the doc was signed. Signing a doc does not constitute "completion of a notarial act," IMO.
In any case, I got my "training" escrow-style; which meant the escrow notary came in, had the borrowers sign her journal, then she left, and a flunkie would conduct the signing (strictly point 'n' sign). Most borrowers were too intimidated by the trappings of an escrow office and were often accompanied by their Realtor/LO who was obviously in cahoots with the TC that they didn't offer any trouble. Then, at the end of the signing, the flunkie would gather up the docs, shoo the borrowers out and fill in all the blanks on the notarial certificates (at the end of the day or the next day) stamp, and take the docs back to (hopefully) the original notary, who presumably signed the notarial certificates, but who knows? The words "loan docs" were all that was written in the log. End of story. Anything beyond that is a major improvement.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/7/12 1:38am
Msg #437479

Re: That's very interesting, Marian.

What about signing the journal, though? They have to sign the journal...and you have to record the information in the journal for each act, right? SO, how can you possibly do that and do the rest of it hours later?

What style and procedure is or was doesn't mean is is what is it's the way it's supposed to be...

The way I'm reading what they wrote is they want it all done at the same time - journal entry and notarial act completed together, right then... not hours later when it's convenient or less intimidating for people.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/7/12 2:01am
Msg #437480

I kinda disagree with both of you...

I think it was wrong of Buddy to accuse Goldgirl of being a "point and sign" notary, but I don't agree that something's always "seriously wrong" with a notary who takes longer than 1 hour for a signing. 'Course that depends on what you mean by a "standard signing"...

I occasionally have a signing with great borrowers, no mistakes, reasonable sized packages, etc. that I get through quickly, but lately that seems to be the exception. I agree that there are lots of variables that make a huge difference in how long a signing takes, in addition to notarizing at the table. (I prep in advance, but sign, stamp and record at the table.) Here's a late evening ramble on some of them, just for fun:

The first variable is the borrower: "Most people are already onboard, thank goodness."

Oh, I wish!!! I love the ones who are, but in my area, it seems like most of the people qualifying for loans these days are engineers, lawyers, CPAs or computer geeks who are, you could say, very methodical... - or people in financial distress. They nearly always want to go line by line comparing the HUD with their GFE or the copy they just went over in detail with their LO - if they were even able to get in touch with that person. If I just said "you owe this or you're getting this back", they usually want to know how that number was arrived at. I don't get into details not on the page, but I can help them know where to look for info and see how it comes together. (Anymore, when I confirm the appointment, I try to get them to do this with their LO in advance. Once it a while it helps.)

Then there are the misc. escrow docs like the Statement of Information (which can take a long time, depending on the situation, especially for analytical types who really care about being precise...) and the forms requesting all kinds of misc minutia that escrow already has (or should have), like homeowner's insurance details, HO associations, info on loans to be paid off, etc. (also often involving trips to the file cabinet or time on the iPad looking things up). Many times, there are copies of the payoff demand(s) and the insurance declaration page in the package, but some title cos want the BO to fill in that info on their forms anyway. All this stuff should be done in advance, imo, and I've often had borrowers say the same thing. (Do you guys just skip over this stuff?) And let's not forget the investment properties - and purchases by first time buyers - with no RTC.

Finally, I see lots of properties in trusts, which usually means not only a Certification of Trust form (which few know how to fill out), but a minimum of two GDs and the subsequent Preliminary Change Of Ownership Report (for each Deed) that some title co's are now refusing to complete. (Maybe 5% -10% of borrowers know what to do with that one.) I won't even get into the out of state packages from title co's that want every 2nd page notarized, or 3 different Patriot Act forms to complete. With some packages, it seems the escrow docs take as long - or even longer - than the lender docs!

Any one else relate to this or I'm the only one who is so lucky?? Hmmmm.... Maybe I need to move (nah!) or find some new clients!?? Sure felt good to vent about this though!!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/7/12 2:18am
Msg #437482

Re: I kinda disagree with both of you...

I agree with Janet... for me, there simply is NO standard time, and frankly, I'm extremely leery of anyone who claims less than 45 minutes as a standard. To me that seems a bit rush. I'm not saying that's impossible, but..on average, it seems rushed. I've gone everywhere from 20 minutes to just over 2 hours and everything in between for all kinds of reasons. If people ask how much it will take, I tell them, it always varies to allow about 90 minutes, but not be surprised if it take more or less time. We usually get done way faster than 90 mins and I leave with happy borrowers. It's about managing their expecting. But, if for some reason something goes awry, there's a time buffer built in.

Every appointment I have is completely different, and I always go with the flow of the signers. If they want to rush through and get it done, I'm more than willing to oblige. But if I get a reader or an analyzer... I'm okay with that, too. I don't stress over these things because I schedule my appointments accordingly.

One of the complaints I hear a lot though? "The last person we had in here was so rude, he/she just rushed us through everything because he/she had to get to another appointment and was only here about 30 minutes."

So, I'm not sure there's always an advantage to in and out appointment.... nor, honestly, do I believe it can be done properly.

Reply by 101livescan on 10/7/12 9:00am
Msg #437500

Re: I kinda disagree with both of you...

This is a great thread. And a good one to make sure all new notaries/SAs read. According to the SOS, the acknowledgment and jurat are to be completed at the time of notarization with the client. Not before, not after, but at the signing table. And the logging in our journals is to occur simultaneously. I usually take the time to fill in borrowers ID information before they sign my journal, and I have a list of documents I'm notarizing on a postit to complete my journal. When you've done this as long as I have, you have a routine that becomes very second nature.

Before I meet with the client, I've gone through the package and tagged the acks/jurats to make sure I get my signature and stamp on everyone of them...

Next, I pull the HUD, NOTE, TIL, and RTC because if the wheels are going to fall off the bus, it will happen here. The note of course is what everyone is really interested in, to make sure their new interest rate is correct. Next, HUD, reviewing the amount of their new loan, paying off the old loan, accrued interest for new and old loans, costs and lenders credits which may wipe out those costs, proration of taxes and insurance (now, taxes are paid through close of escrow because they are due, and lender will require they be paid upfront).

So, how long does a closing really take? For me minimum 30 minutes. I do have one lender with only four notarized documents. Small package 60 pp. These can be done in 15 to 20.

Two or more borrowers take longer than one borrower. If they hold title in family trust, then there are two more grant deeds and the certification of the trust. Sometimes the Statement of Information needs to be completed, that takes five more minutes.

I am rarely with people more than one hour. Friday, I had three commercial refi loans with BofA, held in trust, but BofA lends to trusts, most lenders do not. So out of the trust, then back into the trust. The borrowers, as trustees, were in a hurry to go to dinner, after 4:30p signing. They signed all three packages in 30 minutes.

Recently I signed two huge refi loans with CitiNationalBank in Los Angeles, title held in a trust. Now this was an interesting event, two multimillion loans and due to manner in which title was held, two trusts, and managing partners, the stacks were 200 pages. Lots of notarizations. We signed in one hour...three guys wanted to get to Big 5 for ammunition, going pig hunting on a huge Ojai ranch. They couldn't wait to get me out the door.

I try to tell people when I confirm the appointment, the amount of time I think we will need to complete the signing of their docs. That gives them reasonable expectation.

Reply by jba/fl on 10/7/12 9:39pm
Msg #437612

I agree - 30-45 mins. tops.

I notarize at the table, I shorten that Occupancy Statement to: is this where you live - primary residence? then they can sign. I notarize at the table, but I do all filling out of certs at home Before I get there, including signature so all I do is stamp. Without the stamp, it is no good, and the time savings is wonderful. I don't want to be in a stranger's home any longer than necessary - even if my only signing of the day. I have things I just WANT to do, and this is my income.

Ask a lazy person to do or how to do something, and you will get the most efficient use of time. If a lazy person can accomplish much, why shouldn't I? Work smart, not hard. If I am in someone's home more than 45 mins., it is because they are stimulating my little grey cells.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/7/12 9:55am
Msg #437502

Re: I think that's how our "rush, rush, rush" high-speed

Just a suggestion that has worked well for me - pre-completing your notary certificates makes things go much faster at the table. I pre-fill all information except my signature and stamp. I do signature/stamp at the table after the signer signs the document.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/7/12 1:07pm
Msg #437524

I think there's a lot of assumption in that remark. Each of

us has developed our own methods. I take the time to put the docs in a "signing order" when I receive them, so I'm investing some time there. After several thousand loan signings, I have an efficient method worked out. The docs are in front of me, and I review them one at a time with the borrowers. I go over page 1 of the HUD--if there's no issues with the nos., we move on. I have never been a "point & sign" notary. I am a Notary Signing Agent & I'm paid to present & review the docs with the borrowers. I have always felt a responsibility to walk away knowing that they knew what they signed. I give them their copy of the docs when we're finished. I don't rush them, but their time is valuable too. I also take extra time after the signing & before I ship to check for signatures, dates, etc. I have always calculated about 3 hrs. per transaction, from phone calls to printing, traveling, signing, double-checking & shipping.
I recently did my own refi at a tc with an attorney. The actual signing took 15-20 minutes. I knew the nos. well in advance, and I was surprised that she dated the documents for me before handing them to me for signing.
I don't criticize those who choose to take longer with the signing. Again, there's no one way to do this. We all develop a method that works for us.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/7/12 1:07pm
Msg #437525

I was posting in response to Buddy's remark, btw. n/m

Reply by jojo_MN on 10/6/12 11:38pm
Msg #437469

Re: I think that's how our "rush, rush, rush" high-speed

I try to give the borrowers 45 minutes to one hour. Some 1 1/2 hours. In my opinion, these borrowers are paying us to be sitting at their table and going thru these documents. Regardless if our fees are being split with a signing service or not, it is coming out of the borrower's pockets. We need to give them respect and not hurry them because we have another signing. (and yes, I do know that the fee also covers cost of printing and driving etc). If we are charging $XXX for our services, we should make it worth their money. JMHO.

PS. In a previous post tonight I stated I couldn't do 211 pages in an 45 minutes. If I was "pointing and signing", it still would have been impossible.

Reply by bfnotary on 10/7/12 4:26am
Msg #437486

Re: I think that's how our "rush, rush, rush" high-speed

When I first started out all my signings took at least an hour to hour and half. I am getting really good now with my routine. On average my signings take about 45 minutes. Sometimes longer, sometimes less. Quicken loans take me about 20-30 minutes. I give short explanations of the documents. And I always sign and stamp at the table. Depending on the circumstances, I try to fill in the notarial certs prior to appt or after appt. I have not had any unhappy borrowers as of yet. (well none unhappy with me anyways).

Reply by Kay/IL on 10/7/12 6:01am
Msg #437489

I think the borrowers feel more secure......

when you stamp and fill out the acknowledgments, etc., in their presence, not beforehand or after you leave. I mean, isn't one of the purpose of being a notary is to properly witness and acknowledging signatures in their presence?

I tell my borrowers to allow about 1 hour for their closing. The time includes reviewing and giving a brief explanations of the documents, signing, notarizing and doing a quality check. Most times we are able to get things done within that time, usually less, but really depending on them.

Reply by 101livescan on 10/7/12 10:15am
Msg #437504

Re: I think that's how our "rush, rush, rush" high-speed

Absolutely, you're right on about making the time to get through the package with customer acceptance and comfort. I always ask, do you have any questions. We talk about any cash back and how they will receive it, or I collect $$ or hand wiring instructions. They know when their first payment is on new loan because I place the FIRST PAYMENT LETTER on top of the package, over the note, then the HUD.

I explain that most everything else is CYA for lender/title/escrow.

They must understand these critical points before I leave the signing.

I frequently hear, "well, that was painless."

If borrowers are late to a signing, and I am time limited, I will make sure they understand the signing might be brisk, but we will get through the maze.

Reply by Barbara A. Garafalo on 10/7/12 8:05am
Msg #437495

Well, this was a lively discussion.

I agree with Marian that is there is no "stardard" time for a signing. In a perfect world there should be. And the size of the package is not an indication IMO because sometimes there are less pages to be signed and notarized than in a very small package. There are just a lot of pages. You never know what is going to happen at the signing before you get there. We all know from experience what can happen. Much out of our control. Enough said.



As for the orginal post. I agree with that. Nothing like getting to the signing the borrower tells you they are in a hurry or they do not have time (can you imagine). Or like she says, the EO says it will take 5 or 20 minutes. When that happens, I break the news and give them the reality. If their expectation of time is reasonable if we just whiz through and sign without explaining the docs, I tell them we can do that, if they like. (And the usual three day.. like to look at the note at least). If it just cannot happen, I break the news as to how long they can exect this to take and ask them what they want to do. Because if they don't have time we will just have to call "someone" about rescheduling. I don't remember anyone rescheduling.

Reply by Barb25 on 10/7/12 8:07am
Msg #437496

Re: Well, this was a lively discussion.

Hmm. My name changed