Posted by Jack/AL on 10/1/12 9:27am
Msg #436602

What LSI says about the new Notarial Evidence form......

Here is the body of a message I sent to LSI on Friday: This is getting absurd, and you're quickly moving downward on the list of preferred companies for many Notaries Public. You're asking for more time and effort by the Notaries Public, but are you willing to pay more? How about filling in the known information about signers and the docs you intend to send (and think you send), and then let the Notaries check the appropriate boxes? That will serve the purpose you address, AND let us know whether we have received the forms you think we have.

Here is the response I received this morning (Monday): The Notarial Evidence form was a last minute addition by Chase, and will be required on all Chase loans, not just those through LSI. In the future the form will be pre-populated as much as possible to reduce the time spent filling it out. Please be patient with LSI as we make our adapations to this new requirement as well. Unfortunately, there is no fee adjustment to LSI from Chase, so there is no fee adjustment to the notary. Thank you for your cooperation.

Reply by Pro Mobile Notary on 10/1/12 10:07am
Msg #436605

Get used to seeing that form and demands that it be completed. We are seeing more and more lenders and title & escrow companies requiring this form to be completed. One lender withheld funding a loan because our signing agent completed the form properly, but did not see the form's requirement that a copy of the signing agent's valid driver's license be included with the form.

You can object until you are blue in the face, but if lenders are rapidly moving to adding this form to their document packages (as we are beginning to see), then you may be out of work with many entities issuing signing assignments if you refuse to complete the form when asked to do so.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 10/1/12 10:15am
Msg #436608

Why a copy of the SA's driver's license? n/m

Reply by Pro Mobile Notary on 10/1/12 10:50am
Msg #436616

Re: Why a copy of the SA's driver's license?

According to the escrow officer we received the order from (she later sent us the document to see for ourselves), she has to certify that she has verified the identity of the signing agent and the only way she can do that from a long distance is via a copy of her photo ID.

Clearly they are making things more difficult escrow officers to use outside signing agents with this extra requirement.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/1/12 11:11am
Msg #436621

Re: Why a copy of the SA's driver's license?

How does seeing a *copy* of an ID verify a person's ID? I mean, that's rather ironic given the audience of notaries isn't it?

If they want to verify or authenticate the notary's ID or signature, all they need to to is consult the county or state that maintains the notary's commission. Seems to me that would solve the issue rather than requiring a copy of an ID that many contain information that is NOT the business of the escrow officer. I mean, as notaries, enough of our information is public already, there's no need to be forcing us to photocopy our ID and sending it off to who knows where just to "verify" something.

Reply by desktopfull on 10/1/12 12:16pm
Msg #436632

I won't be providing Chase with a copy of my ID everytime

I close one of their loans. They can verify my info as a notary with the SOS. I refuse to be treated like a criminal due to the Banks less than ethical behavior in the past.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/1/12 12:50pm
Msg #436637

Re: I won't be providing Chase with a copy of my ID everytime

I know right? That makes no sense. I will happily send a copy of my commission and they are welcome to call the county clerk or the Secretary of State to validate my signature and commissions, but they sure aren't getting a copy of my driver license. I'm not taking a loan out with them, that information is none of their business.

The Sec of State has already long validated my identity and my background. If the Escrow officer can't take that a CA notary seal alone isn't proof enough, then a call to the Sec of State's office ought to do it.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/1/12 1:42pm
Msg #436652

Re: I won't be providing Chase with a copy of my ID everytime

Bruce Schneier, an expert on electronic signatures among other things, coined a phrase for this: "security theater". People go through motions that seem impressive, if you don't think about it too much.

His website is at http://www.schneier.com/

Reply by jojo_MN on 10/1/12 2:10pm
Msg #436656

Re: I won't be providing Chase with a copy of my ID everytime

I'm not providing it any time.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/1/12 2:34pm
Msg #436663

verifying with state or county

If someone wants to verify a notarization with the state or county, there are two approaches. Most states have an online data base where you can verify that a person with a certain name is a commissioned notary. Some additional information is available, which varies by state. I don't think any state shows the notary's signature online.

Or, the person who wants verification can take the document in person, or send it by mail, to the appropriate authority in the notary's state or county and have it authenticated, but this is too expensive, too slow, and in the case of mail, the risk of losing the document is too great.

Really, verifying that a stranger really is a notary and really did notarize some paper document just isn't possible if you want to do it quickly and cheaply, in line with the computer age. I can think of two solutions.

1. Lenders should deal with trustworthy title companies, who in turn should develop long-term relationships with notaries, or hire trustworthy signing services who in turn develop long-term relationships with notaries. The first time a title company or signing service deals with a notary, they would take a step to verify the notary's identity. For example, put an extra document in the package, "Request for authentication of notary" which the borrower signs and acknowledges, and is sent to the county by mail for authentication.

2. Electronic signatures; notary chooses from a list of quality digital certificate providers, unaffiliated with the lender/title company/signing certificate. The notary completes a form similar to what Chase wants, signs it electronically to the interested party. This does an end-around the problem that most land record offices can't deal with electronic signatures, and because the Chase-style document is only for short-term use, the long-term problems with electronic signatures are avoided.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/1/12 4:46pm
Msg #436681

Re: verifying with state or county

Or the whole issue could be preempted if states followed the model used here in CA and notaries were vetted before they could even get a commission and if the process of ordering a notary stamp was as highly controlled as it is here. Checking a notary's signature on a document against their ID as a way of proving their identity is a joke compared to what we have to go through to even be able to order a notary stamp here.

If I had to choose between 1) submitting to and paying for one live-scan fingerprinting process and FBI & DOJ BGC every four years, or 2) constantly being asked for this or that other less comprehensive BGC and being requested to send a copy of my DL with packages where I just facilitate the signing, the former is a slam dunk! That's probably pie in the sky, but might at least be worth working towards.

As for your first suggestion above, I suspect that there would be several counties around the country that would be very unhappy to suddenly be bombarded with requests for "authentication of notary" - if they even do that at all.

I'm not well enough informed yet on electronic signatures to have an opinion on that option, but at first blush, I'm thinking there might be some problems with that. For one, if the digital signature was acquired to use in our capacity as Notary Public, in my state I believe we could only use it for a notarization. (But I'm just guessing here since I haven't yet researched the subject.) If we acquired a second digital signature for general use without a "notary" title, the lender might not accept it.

But hey, I think we should explore as many possible options as we can come up with. There has to be a better way than what some of these lenders are proposing.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/1/12 4:54pm
Msg #436684

Re: verifying with state or county

We should bear in mind that one can go to Michael's (a craft store) and buy everything you need to make your own notary stamp. It would cost well under $100. In my state, that would even be legal, if the person who made the stamp really was a notary. Is California one of those states that allows the image of the stamp to be printed by a computer? Then no out-of-pocket expense is needed at all; just a bit of skill with word processing software.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/1/12 5:30pm
Msg #436688

Re: verifying with state or county

"Is California one of those states that allows the image of the stamp to be printed by a computer?"

If you mean are electronic seals legal? Then yes. I have one. They are legal, but they are only allowed to be used by a commissioned Notary Public, exactly the same way as a traditional rubber stamp or embossing seal would be.

In CA, the seal can only be legally manufactured by an approved vendor, and the manufacturer of the seal has to put their ID on the seal itself. So, with every CA notary seal, you can trace it back to the manufacturer. And the manufacturer has to send a sample impression of the seal to the Sec of State. The whole thing is rather controlled.

It is still possible to create an electronic copy of a notary seal? Oh, sure! Is it legal? Nope, not one bit. But it's possible. I'd say it's probably far easier to forge c opy of a notary stamp from just about any other state. But then, the stamp itself is only one part of the process.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/1/12 5:49pm
Msg #436690

Re: verifying with state or county

It's good to deter both genuine fraud and illegal shortcuts as much as possible. Forcing legitimate rubber stamp makers to register with the state and receive an authorization form from the state before making a notary stamp, and ruling out computer-printed seals on paper, would pretty much eliminate those who are just taking a stupid shortcut. I'm not sure how many evil crooks it would stop.

But just stopping the illegal shortcuts (the wife really does want the refi, but she's in Barbados, so somebody fudges the notarization) is worthwhile, because if the shortcut is ever discovered, it could create a cloud on the title of some totally innocent future purchaser 25 years from now.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 10/1/12 1:52pm
Msg #436654

Re: Why a copy of the SA's driver's license?

Wow.... If this becomes a standard practice, just think how many copies of our DLs will be out there, between title co's, lenders and even some signing services! Like others said, there's already easy access to too much of our personal information. Seems like that would dramatically increase our risks of identity theft - and who knows what else. All this effort to protect borrowers may end up having the opposite affect on us, putting us at much greater risk. Will some kind of credit monitoring service become another necessary business tool along with constant requests for new background checks? Cha-ching...

Reply by dgd/CA on 10/2/12 5:10pm
Msg #436886

Re: Why a copy of the SA's driver's license?

Please, Prospect Mortgage right? lol

Reply by Tasha/WI on 10/2/12 8:07pm
Msg #436903

Re: Why a copy of the SA's driver's license?

I did not see anything in the instructions about sending a copy of my DL. Where in the e-mail did it state this.

Reply by Cherylann on 10/1/12 10:19am
Msg #436611

Where is that demand... er, instruction... ?

Reply by Pro Mobile Notary on 10/1/12 10:51am
Msg #436617

The one I am referring to is withing the document package itself.

I cannot speak to what LSI is requiring.

Reply by jojo_MN on 10/1/12 1:33pm
Msg #436649

So, are they asking for copies of the loan originators, all

of the processors in tc and and copies of every employee in the signing service as well??

Sorry, will NOT be sending my drivers license to anyone. It is none of their business. I had background checks for my commission, my closers license etc. That should be enough for them. They can just check with the Minnesota SOS if they want to "verify my identity"!!

Reply by 101livescan on 10/1/12 10:12am
Msg #436607

Isn't it interesting how we're doing more and more of the LO's or EO's job as time passes. Faxbacks for immediate return to lender for prior to funding conditions review, completing the Trust Certificate, which should have been done way before documents are emailed to EO for signing, Statement of Information form, these are sent to client by EO to be completed way before the time of signing as Escrow is running the PRELIM. Piling more on the signing agent, but don't expect a raise in pay for extra work. I hear it all the time, YOU'RE LUCKY TO HAVE A JOB!

Well, true! but....

Reply by Buddy Young on 10/1/12 10:36am
Msg #436614

Re: go on strike, don't do any Chase loans n/m

Reply by Eva75Eva on 10/1/12 10:55am
Msg #436619

Re: go on strike, don't do any Chase loans

Totally agree! Either that or ask for extra compensation!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/1/12 10:38am
Msg #436615

You what's kind of funny about that?

I need some dental work done... but as it turns out, I had some additional issues I wasn't aware of that needed attention. Darn it.

What am I to do?

I either have the work done or I don't -- but I certainly don't insist on having the work done and tell the dentist he's not getting paid for it. Extra work means being compensated, it's that simple.

Sadly, most notaries will just accept that they are lucky to get work, keep their employee mentality hat on... bend over and take it.

Reply by Barb25 on 10/1/12 10:51am
Msg #436618

Re: You what's kind of funny about that?

What you say is so true, Marian. But unfortunately unless ALL notaries refuse to do the work under these conditions or at least a number large enough to impact the Chase business, it is like spitting in the wind. If someone can devise a way to make that happen, then something good can happen for all notaries.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/1/12 11:21am
Msg #436622

Re: You what's kind of funny about that?

True. I can say that I for one do NOT accept that kind of work. I set my fees. *I* do. I do not let companies dictate to me what they pay. If they can't afford my fees, that's fine, they can move on to somebody else. I make no apologies for that.

I always tell them that they are the customer with a budget and I am the service provider. I have my rates. I negotiate, at time when warranted, but I have my rates and I have them for a reason.

When companies say "They pay" this or that it's because they think of you as their EMPLOYEE and they treat you like one, too. Most of these companies have no clue how to treat their contractors... and sadly, most of the notaries who accept the low fees have very little business aptitude and understanding of the difference between employees and contractors. Seriously, most have NO CLUE....including many who *think* they know.

Reply by 101livescan on 10/1/12 11:30am
Msg #436624

Re: You what's kind of funny about that?

Marian, you're a woman after my own heart. We all have choices from whom we accept our assignments.

Do you want to drive a VW or a Cadillace. It's just that simple.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/1/12 11:46am
Msg #436627

Re: You what's kind of funny about that?

And the irony is that I drive a 13 year old Honda... but the service is way better than that. Where I live, a nicer car would just suffer and get banged up. I'm actually starting to shop for a good used Jeep so I can better handle the rougher roads I often have to tackle. I've had too many flat tires in the last 18 months.

Reply by Barb25 on 10/1/12 2:17pm
Msg #436657

Re: You what's kind of funny about that?

Well Marian, you are obviously in good company. I read that Warren Buffet drives a 15 year old Honda.

Reply by Barb25 on 10/1/12 11:40am
Msg #436625

Re: You what's kind of funny about that?

I am totally on board with that. That is what being an independent contractor is all about. Unfortunately we can only control ourselves. What I have seen lately is companies that have historically been known for low fees, willing to approve higher fees. I don't think it is because they want to do this. I think they have gotten what they have paid for with the $50 inexperienced notaries and their lenders are losing patience. Better to pay and get it done perfectly the first time. This of course is pure speculation on my part. But I have gotten fees I never thought would be approved from some companies. Amazing. BTW, sometimes they are not approved. So be it.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/1/12 12:00pm
Msg #436628

Re: You what's kind of funny about that?

I've been fairly fortunate as of late because I live a rural area that is not all that pleasant to access, especially in the summer months (I'm a couple hours from Death Valley). There are a handful of notaries out here, but not many will travel as far as I will. By the time they get to me, they are pretty desperate and willing to pay whatever I ask.... usually. Although a good portion are laughably ridiculous. Some get seriously offended when I tell them that $80 for a 6 hour round trip for driving alone is way, WAY too low... with one hour of notice, by the way. I try to explain the limitations of physics to these people and it seems to go over their heads. I think many of them honestly believe we all live in crowded cities or suburban villages.

They all seem shocked when I explain that I live in a wide open desert surrounded by military installations, mountains and people who live on crazy washboard dirt roads. And these aren't backwoods "white-trash" people either... these are people with very large, almost palatial ranch homes. Many of them big names in the aerospace industry, both private and government. Lots of engineers, astronomers, etc. who love the wide open space and dark skies.

Reply by Barb25 on 10/1/12 12:23pm
Msg #436634

Re: You what's kind of funny about that?

"I tell them that $80 for a 6 hour round trip for driving alone is way, WAY too low... with one hour of notice, by the way. I try to explain the limitations of physics to these people and it seems to go over their heads."

I get it... LOL... Not laughing at you of course. It is just that you have to wonder if the scheduler has a map... $80 6 hours.. That is outrageous. I've never been offered anything that far.. I won't even comment on the $80 of course...

Anyhow, it does sound beautiful out there.

Reply by ssdn on 10/1/12 1:13pm
Msg #436646

Re: You what's kind of funny about that?

I agree Marian 100%, I went on an interview to Stewart Title Company , they said that they did not have too many notaries in my area, so they would be giving me most of their closing .Stewart Title wanted me to do these closing for 75.00 dollars. Now, this is a title companies which I know they can paid much more than 75'00 dollars.I asked her who came up with this fee of 75.00 dollars for their Notaries. She explained her Boss spoke to Chase about the fee for their Notaries . She was hoping I was going to jump at this opportunity. I explained to her that this was too low especially for a Title company. She was surprise at my respond .In addition, I explained to her that when ever a notary accept a closing they are losing about 22.00$ -25.00$ dollars a closing. there are expenses that we occur. I continue to explain our supplies from Ink ,Cartridge, Paper, Gas, general office supplies and, depreciation of our car, because of the miles we place on are cars. etc etc, Notaries loss about 25.00 off the top for their expense. That being said,
If I take a closing for 75.00-25.00 I only make 50.00 dollars. this is too low. Now for the notaries who do take the low fees, I fine over time they slowly leave the business because they do not make enough money to make it. Notaries at one time made as much as 200.00-300.00 a closing. They have decrease down to 100.00 115.00 125.00 etc.. Now, the borrowers are not getting a break, they are still paying 200.00 275.00 375.00. I see the fee for the notaries on the HUD. I did a closing for a Quicken loan I was surprise to see the Borrowers were paying 400.00 to the Notary. The Hud displayed Notary -- 400.00. So, the borrowers are still paying these fee, but we are not getting our fair fee. So, my questions is who is getting the rest of the notaries fee, because we are not?.

Reply by jojo_MN on 10/1/12 2:09pm
Msg #436655

Re: You what's kind of funny about that?

I did one of the Quicken loans last week and saw that "Notary fee $400". The borrowers told me they are in the wrong business and thought it was outrageous that I was getting that much of their money. I said "I wish I got that much money". I was so embarrassed. Not to mention not too happy with the SS that talks us down to the pathetic fee that they pay us. Very close to writing the Title companies a nice letter explaining the borrowers' reactions to this insanity.

I work for some very good signing services, but it amazes me the audacity of some of others. There is no reason on earth that a signing service should get more than us since we are the ones incurring the expense and time, much less charging that outrageous fee!

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 10/1/12 4:42pm
Msg #436680

Don't be embarrassed

I know that's an uncomfortable situation, jojo, but no need to be embarrassed. I usually turn it around by saying that is what they (the borrowers) are paying to have me sitting at their table ... or wherever we're meeting, but it is nowhere near what I am paid, adding that I'm sure I'd be worth every penny (this usually gets a guffaw). Then, I mumble something about the middleman getting on the dough (which is true). So if they want to take it up with the lender, they can have at it. Problem is they seldom do, probably.

BTW, don't let anybody "talk you down to the pathetic fee they pay us." Stick to your minimum fee or hang up. You might be surprised how well it plays out in the end.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/1/12 5:53pm
Msg #436692

Re: Don't be embarrassed

I actually had a rather snobby woman say something to me once when I still lived in LA. And this is the ONLY time this every happened.... she was clearly someone who cared about status, let's put it that way. For those if you in Los Angeles, you'll understand this RIGHT away. I was dressed really nice, because I knew the neighborhood.... but it wasn't enough for her, and my little old Honda just wasn't up to her standards. But it ended up with her apologizing.

She said, during the signing, "Why in the world am I paying $750.00 for Notary fees to a person who should have parked in the service drive. I mean, my maid drives a better car than you do."

I didn't even realize she was watching what I'd pulled up in or where I'd parked, though I did have to pull in to her drive through closed gates (totally common in the neighborhood). I just smiled and explained that I was actually being paid very well, considering, and that the "Notary Fee" was just a term used to cover a bunch of fees related to printing, shipping and coordinating getting me out to her home, and that multiple companies took pieces of that money. She seemed to understand, but then she got really irate and said, "Hang on, you mean to tell me that this fee isn't really what it says it is?"

I wasn't going to lie to her. She was being charged a lot of money for "Notary Fees" and it was a good question. I was the notary but I didn't get all of the money and she wanted to know why.

She then got pretty angry and started called her attorney and went ballistic. I saw her point, really. She was wondering what other hidden fees were being hidden from her. She said if part of of the "Notary Fees" are actually shipping fees or printing fees, then she wanted it itemized as such... she wanted to know exactly what she was being charged for and wanted exact documentation to justify everything on the HUD.

She ended up cancelling the signing and the aplogized to me for being rude.

Reply by jojo_MN on 10/1/12 11:29pm
Msg #436754

Re: Don't be embarrassed

Wow. That is amazing. I really would like to see the total breakdown on the HUD instead of just "closing costs". I'm sure many title companies would be shocked when they saw the breakdown on how much the signing services are getting in relation to us signing agents.

Reply by LynnNC on 10/1/12 12:04pm
Msg #436629

Why would Chase need to know the time of notarization? n/m

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 10/1/12 12:12pm
Msg #436630

Re: Why would Chase need to know the time of notarization?

Actually...in a way they do have a right to know that in a sense... in California we are required to record the time in our journals.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/1/12 1:36pm
Msg #436651

Re: Why would Chase need to know the time of notarization?

If the time is noted in a notary journal, that could be of some use if the purported signer denies having signed any documents; if the time in the notary's journal coincided with a good alibi for the purported signer, that would lend weight to the denial. But since Chase's form is unsigned, it will carry less weight than a journal from a state that requires accurate journal entries.

Another possibility is investigating missing documents. If the time noted on the Chase form completed by the notary says the signing was at 3 pm Pacific time, and the computer timestamp on a document says it was prepared at 4:40 PM Pacific time, that would suggest the document was never sent to the notary. Of course, since Chase has not shared their intended use for this form (and we might not believe them if they did) we don't know if they're trying to see if they are trying to check up on, the notary, the title company, the signing service, or some combination of these.

Reply by notary4az2 on 10/1/12 3:48pm
Msg #436668

Re: Why would Chase need to know the time of notarization?

I had a discussion with a couple of loan officers from Chase, who said that they were very disappointed that some notaries are just handing docs to the borrowers and telling them to sign. That the notary tells the signers that they are just there to witness. The loan officers asked if I was background checked and I showed them that I was. They stated that at least I could explain the information on the docs to the borrowers which they did not need to even though they were present at the signing. So you are all right about us doing more and more of title work than signing agents without the pay raise. But could this be causing this sudden revelation of more paperowrk and more verifications?

Reply by CentralNY on 10/1/12 4:27pm
Msg #436674

Very interesting and it makes sense

that this is being done because of lazy idiots that have infiltrated this biz. but shame on companies that do not just hire the good people that have been around for years and do a great job. now that is a novel idea and i guess beyond the $ comprehension. all that crap and time doing it when all you need to do is hire a good person for a few bucks more. the dumbing down of amerika.

Reply by CopperheadVA on 10/1/12 7:23pm
Msg #436705

Re: Why would Chase need to know the time of notarization?

<< they were very disappointed that some notaries are just handing docs to the borrowers and telling them to sign. >>

This happens because the notary/signing agent fee has been whittled down to the point of ridiculousness. The TC's that handle Chase want 5-star service but want to pay 1-star pricing.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 10/1/12 7:55pm
Msg #436716

Re: Why would Chase need to know the time of notarization?

I think that the notaries who participate in this forum might be skimpy on the explanations in order to steer clear of UPL. I'm sure most of the forum participants could explain more than they actually do. The people who CAN'T explain anything will seldom be heard from on the forum.

Reply by Bee_CA on 10/1/12 11:21pm
Msg #436753

Re: Why would Chase need to know the time of notarization?

"... the notary tells the signers that they are just there to witness." That's intereresting. When I have had a situation with documents that I couldn't notarize for one reason or another, the TC or SS tells me "you are only there to witness the signatures"...

Reply by parkerc/ME on 10/1/12 7:36pm
Msg #436710

I'd have no issue, IF.........

They'd get the documents to us in plenty of time to print and review and either populate their additional "notary journal page" document (which is really pretty much what it duplicates!) or make sure they have populated it. However, late docs seem to be the norm lately and I'm going to start telling Title that if I don't have the documents at a certain time (3+ hrs beforehand), I will be calling them at that exact time to turn the job back to them. So the issue of filling out their form will be moot in that case.
As far as providing Lender a copy of my DL...no. I've already provided a copy of my DL (#, BD and height/weight redacted) to their Title company when I completed their sign-up package and I'm sure not going to do it again...they can get it from Title..Title can send it to them with the returned signed docs.

Reply by MW/VA on 10/1/12 8:26pm
Msg #436720

I'm going out on a limb here, but I think Chase is in

trouble & this amounts to a CYA move.
I remember what went on with Country Wide & all the problems that started to come up--like faxbacks, lower fees, etc. That's when payment problems started with NREIS too. I don't have the facts on this--just sayin.