Posted by HisHughness on 9/22/12 8:33pm
Msg #435486

Does anyone know of any circumstance, in any jurisdiction...

... in which a notary is authorized to affix his seal, <without any certification>, to each page of a notarized document, with the only certification on the final page? Three-page document, seals only on first two pages, last page has seal and acknowledgment.

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/22/12 9:20pm
Msg #435497

No. n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/22/12 9:29pm
Msg #435498

Alfred Piombino wrote a book in 1996, "Notary Public Handbook: A Guide for Vermont Notaries, Commissioners, & Justices of the Peace". It has a forward from John Milne, who was Vermont Secretary of State when the book was written. The book advocates embossing every page to prevent substitution of pages. Interestingly, Vermont does not require, but does recommend, seals for notaries.

Of course writing a forward for a book does not necessarily mean the former Secretary of State approved of every single sentence in the book.

Reply by Shoshana/AZ on 9/22/12 10:10pm
Msg #435499

That is illegal in AZ. n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/22/12 10:46pm
Msg #435500

MAYBE New York

Section 135 of the New York Notary License Law says that among the powers of notaries are

"to exercise such other powers and duties as by the laws of nations and according to commercial usage, or by the laws of any other government or country may be exercised and performed by notaries public, provided that when exercising such powers he shall set forth the name of such other jurisdiction."

So it would appear that if one could show that sealing every page is a commercial usage, or that some other jurisdiction requires it, then the New York notary could do it.

See http://www.dos.ny.gov/licensing/lawbooks/notary.pdf

Reply by HisHughness on 9/22/12 11:06pm
Msg #435505

Here is the situation

I was asked to notarize a general POA to be used in an Indian real estate transaction. No notary certification on the document. The signer elected to affix an acknowledgment, then asked me to stamp each page. When I declined, he told me that is the practice in India. Then he called up on his cell phone documents he had previously signed. One was notarized by a Texas notary, who stamped each page. The other was by a Colorado notary, who also stamped each page.

The notary was from Austin Mobile Notary. He has been comissioned since 2009.

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 9/22/12 11:23pm
Msg #435508

Can't do that in CA

If their colicky about it, just have them sign each page, notarize their signature for each page and call it a day. (Granted, I wouldn't give legal advice but if someone said they want my stamp on each page, then I'd tell them how it could be done.)

Reply by Susan Fischer on 9/23/12 12:05am
Msg #435510

OR either. Can only use stamp for Notarial Act. However,

it is permissible to overlap onto a corresponding page - so as to match up -, but physically attached (stapled) as any attached cert must. I've only had that request once over the years.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/23/12 12:12am
Msg #435511

Re: OR either. Can only use stamp for Notarial Act. However,

Definitely no can do in CA. In fact, we can't even to the overlapping thing.

Per our 2012 newsletter, they made that very clear (page 3):

"Your official seal must be placed in its entirety on the same page as the notarial certificate. Do not place an impression of the seal on every page of a document or fan the pages of the document and place an impression of the seal across all pages."

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/23/12 8:27am
Msg #435521

For next time

I understand Texas notaries are allowed to use embossing seals. Go to Michael's craft store (I know they have those in TX, I've done lots of Christmas shopping in TX). Get a grommet kit, which is kind of like a brass rivet, except there is a hole in the middle about 1/4 inch in diameter. Punch a hole in the upper right corner of the document, including the certificate. Put the loose certificate as the first page. Install the grommet through the wholes and crimp it in place with the tool that comes in the kit. Run a ribbon through the grommet so the ribbon ties all the pages together. Near your signature on the certificate, use a gold foil seal to stick the ribbon down. Emboss the gold foil seal.

If the seal isn't legible, seal again next to it.

This is how the United States Patent Office issues official copies of patents.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/23/12 8:45am
Msg #435522

Oops, s/b "upper left corner" and "hole" n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 9/23/12 9:38am
Msg #435532

I've done this several times - it works perfectly,

Especially on documents going out of the country.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/23/12 1:07am
Msg #435513

I did a complete acknowledgent for each page n/m

Reply by HisHughness on 9/23/12 1:07am
Msg #435514

S/B "acknowledgment" n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 9/23/12 11:30pm
Msg #435601

In OR, no can do without a signature to acknowledge on

each page.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/24/12 12:26am
Msg #435603

Each page was signed. n/m

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 9/23/12 9:36am
Msg #435531

In other countries they do sometimes seal every page.

In Florida, there is nothing prohibiting us from placing the embossed seal on every page - there are also many notaries who place the official seal (i.e. the rubber stamp) on all of the pages by lining them up and stamping them so that a little bit goes on each page to keep pages from being replaced. I don't see any reason why this can't be done in Florida, although whether it is a desirable practice is up for debate.

Reply by SharonMN on 9/24/12 11:00am
Msg #435636

Re: Here is the situation

The whole point of the apostille process (or consularization, if the country is not part of the Hague Convention) is to certify that the notarization presented is a legal, proper notarization in the jurisdiction in which it was performed. It doesn't HAVE to look like what the foreign country expects, as long as it has an apostille or similar attached.

Reply by MikeC/TX on 9/23/12 2:28pm
Msg #435559

Re: MAYBE New York

Notaries in NY do not have seals - they have stamps with their commission information (which can also be hand-written), but that is not considered a seal. I did have a crimping seal when I was in NY, but it was by no means considered "official", and many NY notaries don't bother with the expense because it's just for show. The only reason I bothered getting one is because I was getting GNW requests for documents going overseas, and they required a seal.

So, in NY, what Hugh is asking about is permissible.

Reply by ananotary on 9/23/12 10:13am
Msg #435536

Is this possibly being mixed up as the apostille process n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/23/12 10:38am
Msg #435542

Re: Is this possibly being mixed up as the apostille process

The TX SOS has a page about apostilles, and India is a country that signed the apostille treaty:

http://www.sos.state.tx.us/authinfo.shtml

The TX SOS web page does not explain how the apostille certificate will be attached to the document.

Reply by MikeC/TX on 9/23/12 2:53pm
Msg #435560

In NY, you would just do that with an embosser

NY notaries don't have notary seals - they just stamp their commission information under their signature, but you could also print it in black ink instead. I had an embossing seal that carried no official significance, but sometimes when the document was headed overseas the receiving country required a raised seal. In that case, I would emboss each of the pages and perform the actual notarization on the signature page, and everybody was happy.

I don't know what other states say about embossers, but I believe they are allowed here in Texas. Obviously, they don't replace the stamp, but it's one way of providing what the foreign want to see.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/23/12 3:11pm
Msg #435563

You're going to have to explain the difference to me

An embossed seal is a seal, just a different form than the ink seal. Both carry exactly the same information. How would placing an embossed seal upon a page without notarial certification differ from placing an ink seal on a page without certification?

Reply by dgd/CA on 9/23/12 3:26pm
Msg #435567

Re: You're going to have to explain the difference to me

I'm curious as well, while this sounds simple and reasonable (to satisfy a foreign nations Love of Stamps And Seals), I'm in CA, and would, no doubt, be crucified for this. However; I absolutely understand that the Notary Laws vary from state to state. No criticism here, just asking ...

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/23/12 4:21pm
Msg #435572

Re: You're going to have to explain the difference to me

Some states like Texas require a seal and give the notary the choice of an embossed seal or an ink stamp-seal. Other states require a seal but don't have any rules about what it consists of. Some require an ink stamp-seal and also allow an optional embosser to be use in addition to, but not in place of, the ink seal. New York allows but does not require a seal, and does not describe what kind of seal should be used if the notary chooses to use one.

An interesting thing about the way the question was originally posed is that Hugh asked if placing the notarial seal on every page, with a certificate only on the last page, was authorized. A few states either authorize it, authorize an embosser which isn't a seal (the ink stamp is the seal), or once endorsed a book that suggests it. A few states prohibit it. That leaves a lot of states where we haven't found a position one way or the other.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/23/12 4:30pm
Msg #435576

Sorry, Gerard, but that doesn't explain it.

In Texas, an embosser is a seal. How would placing an embossed seal on a page sans certification differ from placing an ink seal on it?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/23/12 4:50pm
Msg #435580

Re: Sorry, Gerard, but that doesn't explain it.

In Texas, it wouldn't be different.

Reply by Clem/CA on 9/23/12 6:57pm
Msg #435589

Re: Sorry, Gerard, but that doesn't explain it.

An embosser has raised lettering an ink stamp is just that an inked stamp

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/23/12 4:47pm
Msg #435578

Re: You're going to have to explain the difference to me

<<<<Some require an ink stamp-seal and also allow an optional embosser to be use in addition to, but not in place of, the ink seal.>>>

That describes CA. I believe the embosser used to be "the" seal but was replaced by the ink seal. Embossers aren't cheap and I'm glad I invested in one because, awhile back, I got a call from a lady looking for a notary with an embosser. She said she called a long list of notaries and none of them had an embosser, so I got the job!

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/23/12 7:50pm
Msg #435592

Re: You're going to have to explain the difference to me

LIsa, I totally agree. While we're not required to have an embosser, I most definitely have one, and it comes in handy a lot. I had a couple sending documents back to Louisiana and the letter from their attorney that said they MUST find a notary with a raised seal. The said they were making calls for days and some notaries even told them that CA didn't let us use them anymore (huh??). They finally found me via a Google search and said they would pay me to drive to them... 3 hours away!

I find it crazy that they couldn't find a notary with an embosser any closer than that... but hey, I wasn't complaining...it was worth the trip.

I believe this also applies to having a basic round stamp and well as one in a color other than black. My round stamp is purple, and a lot of people have asked if I had a colored stamp. I think it's mostly psychological, but people really like my purple seal on their documents. I guess it feels more official to them than the basic black rectangle.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/23/12 8:20pm
Msg #435594

Embossers, both handheld and desk models, are on sale...

... for $18 here on Notary Rotary. Also, for those who are unaware of them, NotRot offers a really classy round address stamp.

Reply by MikeC/TX on 9/23/12 8:35pm
Msg #435595

Re: You're going to have to explain the difference to me

I think we're quibbling over semantics. In NY, there is no notary seal. What you have to do is provided the following info below your signature:

Your name
The words Notary Public - State of New York
Your commission number
The name of the county you qualified in
The expiration date of your commission

That can either be hand-printed or stamped, but since there's no requirement for a stamp, it is not a seal in the sense where you have this stamp you MUST use. The only requirement is that it must be in black ink.

NY law is silent on the use of embossers, so an embosser will just say something like "Notary Public" at the top, "State of New York" at the bottom. and the notary's name in the middle. The rest of the required elements are missing, so the "seal" in this case carries no legal significance - it looks impressive to some folks, but since it is missing the other elements it cannot be used for an actual notarization. The notarization of the signature must include those five elements; what you do on the other pages is not a concern. I suppose you could put your stamp on all of the other pages if you wanted to; that would be just as meaningless as an embossed seal, but not as elegant.

If a state allows these types of embossers, the problem you referred to is solved - the foreign countries just want to see a raised seal. If a state gives you the choice of either/or (and I never really checked TX regs, since all I have is the stamp), then you would have a problem with the request for every page to be embossed.

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 9/24/12 8:13am
Msg #435617

Hugh, the difference is

If your state requires you to use an ink seal, then that is your official seal. But if you use an optional embosser that is not required by law then this is not an official seal and you can basically use it how you want.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/24/12 8:33am
Msg #435620

Re: Hugh, the difference is

FlaNotary2 wrote "If your state requires you to use an ink seal, then that is your official seal. But if you use an optional embosser that is not required by law then this is not an official seal and you can basically use it how you want."

I seem to recall some publication from some SOS's office where an inked seal was required, and the publication suggested an embosser could be used on every page to prevent substitution. But I can't remember which state it was. Was it Florida?

A counterargument to FlaNotary2 would be that the uninked embosser impression is an incorrect seal. I don't think that's a strong argument, but lots of stuff seems to get rejected by various intermediaries before it ever reaches the desk of someone who actually has the authority and knowledge to make a proper decision.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/24/12 10:01am
Msg #435628

Embossed seals are valid for use in Texas

So, the question remains: Is there a jurisdiction in which a stand-alone seal on every page of a notarized document is permitted?

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/24/12 10:33am
Msg #435632

Re: Embossed seals are valid for use in Texas

Not only are the valid, but they are equal to stamping seals as long as they are reproducible on a coper/scanner.

I agree that the question remains unanswered.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/24/12 11:58am
Msg #435642

An answer: Puerto Rico

The Texas SOS has a summary of seal requirements at:

http://www.sos.state.tx.us/statdoc/notary-seal-list.shtml#al

If you follow the links, you will eventually come to Puerto Rico Laws Ann. Title 4, § 2034 at the LexisNexis website:

http://www.michie.com/puertorico/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp=prcode

That law states:

:The grantors and witnesses shall sign the deed and shall also affix the initials of their name and surname or surnames to the margin of each one of the pages of the document which shall be flourished and sealed by the notary."

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/24/12 3:23pm
Msg #435682

South Carolina too

The South Carolina notary manual may be found at

http://www.sos.sc.gov/Forms/Notary/NotaryPublicReferenceManual.PDF

On page 21 it gives an example of a notary embossing or stamping every page of a certified copy.

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/24/12 8:20pm
Msg #435708

That list on the Tx sos website is a great resource.

Shhhh...it used to be one of my best kept secrets.