Posted by Nattienotary on 9/24/12 11:29pm
Msg #435726

Expired Passport ID

The other day a borrower gave me a passport that was expired in 2005 as her second piece of ID for the patriot act doc. I was hesitant to accept it, and asked for another piece of ID. I thought this was correct, right? The passport was clearly her, and identified by photo and sig. The only other ID she could provide was a costco visa card, but it did have her photo on it. Do you think the passport could be accepted as second ID?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/25/12 1:43am
Msg #435731

Did you use the expired passport to notarize her signature on anything?

If so, then no.... not correct. CA law (assuming you're in CA based on your name) says that expired documents can only be accepted for notarization if they were ISSUED in the past 5 years. Given that her passport expired over 5 years ago, it's safe to assume it was issued well before that, too.

And no...Costco cards aren't acceptable, either, for notarization. When it comes to notarizing signatures in CA, you can't ask for a second form of ID to back up an unacceptable one... even *IF* it's obvious the person in front of you is the person in the ID. You have to use ONE on the acceptable form of ID and rely on it. Having others can benefit if you're suspicious...and if they volunteer them... but you use them as satisfactory evidence of ID.

Now, as for the Patriot Act stuff? Yeah... you blew it, there, too, because the Patriot Act guidelines require UNEXPIRED documents.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/25/12 1:45am
Msg #435732

"but you use them as satisfactory evidence of ID."

Whoops, I mean you should NOT use them as satisfactory evidence.

It's been a loooong day!

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 9/25/12 2:40am
Msg #435733

I would like to understand better: My current understanding is that the Patriot disclosure form requires a PRIMARY ID and ADDITIONAL/Secondary. From the OP's post, it sounds like the primary ID was used for the notarization and secondary was the "backup."

Now, I would think the secondary should not be an expired form of ID; but after the Primary Method of ID is established, presented, etc., could not an alternate (not what we would use for notarization) ID be collected? What did the lender say as to the "costco visa card?"

I'm only wondering because, in a signing I did a couple of months ago, the lender was OK with the borrower's paystub as the 2nd ID - and, of course no expiration was on that (but it was recent (:

Reply by jba/fl on 9/25/12 7:41am
Msg #435739

That is confusing. I had 2nd ID yesterday that the Patriot Act said I could use a recent utility bill.
Oh - well, ok, that shows something. That is what I was offered, that is what the form said I could accept, that is the info inserted to said form.

Oh, well....

Reply by Barb25 on 9/25/12 8:06am
Msg #435744

Sometimes I even use the insurance policy number that is included in the package. I happen to agree with Hugh (heaven forbid) on this one. Sometimes this form doesn't even require a second ID unless they are not a citizen. Go figure. I think sometimes these forms are makes "some" of us anal. But I have learned my lesson and staying out of the discussions on the forum (for the most part).

Have a good one, Julie.

Barb

Reply by Barb25 on 9/25/12 8:12am
Msg #435748

"these" discussions.

The PM button should be bigger and flash.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/25/12 7:48am
Msg #435741

Does the Patriot Act <require> two forms of ID, or is that just lenders being anal?

Has anybody actually READ the danged act? It's longer than a Russian novel, and even duller, unless you happen to be of my philosophicall persuasion, in which case portions will set your hair on fire and raise your blood pressure enough to blow up any number of federal buildings.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/25/12 8:10am
Msg #435746

I skimmed descriptions of it. I'd be amazed if the ID requirements for a mortgage applicant are spelled out in the Act. If you wanted to try to find it from the top down, I suppose the first step would be to figure out which part applies to mortgage applicants. Then you would most likely discover that some executive-branch agency has been given rule-making authority, so you'd have to find the appropriate rule. Considering the variation we see from lender to lender, I suspect the federal executive agency has delegated some of the rule-making to each lender. One would hope the feds have some kind of boundaries that the lender's rules have to fall within, or that the feds approve the rules, but who knows. It's even hard to figure out who the lender is, when there are a few different companies that describe themselves as the "lender" in each package, and there tends to be two or three different companies at the same address.

It would probably be easier to trace the requirements if one had the document that spells out the lender's rules; that document probably contains a description of what federal rules are being implemented. But I certainly don't have access to that.

Reply by janCA on 9/25/12 8:35am
Msg #435749

if the primary ID was valid and the only secondary ID the borrower had was an expired passport, what else can you do? There is usually a list which consists of anything from an SS card, with no picture, to a voter registration card with no picture, to a w-2, with no picture, then I would think that an expired passport with a photo and description would be just fine. I doubt whether the lender is going to stop the signing just because the borrower's second form of ID is expired.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/25/12 9:40am
Msg #435755

It's not difficult to figure out. It's called the CIP Rule, and is based on Section 326 of the Act. At least one of the documents used should be valid, government issued picture ID.

However, the CIP Rule does allow for situations where this isn't always possible, and it usually means checking references from other financial institutions or credit reporting agencies to verify information supplied. In some cases, they allow for others to verify your identity for you -- not unlike the use of credible witnesses for a notarization.

The above situation might fly for the Patriot Act form....but it would NOT for any notarization in Calfornia, not in any shape or form.

Reply by Nattienotary on 9/26/12 12:47am
Msg #435926

So many questions to answer. Ok, the patriot act does require (2) pieces of ID. The first one is generally drivers license. The patriot form lists many other options as well as the other box. Whenever I ask for (2) pieces of ID, the borrowers give me drivers license and a credit card (costco) because it has a photo, a ID # and expiration #. I have taken this several times, and never had anyone question it.

Reply by MW/VA on 9/25/12 12:01pm
Msg #435781

It's been my understanding that the Patriot Act only

requires 2 ID's from non-citizens, and one picture ID (usually the D/L) should be enough. Credit cards aren't a valid form of ID, but I've had a few situations where that's all they had as a 2nd ID, too. I don't like to accept those either, and usually black-out their acct. no.
It's scarey how many people would give things like their debit card as ID.

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/25/12 9:31am
Msg #435754

<<<The only other ID she could provide was a costco visa card,....>>>

It's difficult to believe the woman couldn't drum up a pay stub, utility bill, SS card, or health insurance card. She can go online and print out a current utility bill or pay stub.

Reply by Robin/CA on 9/25/12 9:58am
Msg #435758

I recently did a signing at a Campsite in Yosemite and the borrowers only had their Drivers License and a Costco card, which I used as a second form of ID on the Patriot Act form. No phone signal so I couln't check to see if that was acceptable, but it turned out to be fine.

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/25/12 10:08am
Msg #435759

Though the OP didn't say where the signing was taking place, I will venture to say it wasn't at a campsite with no cell signal. So now, what's THAT borrower's excuse?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/25/12 10:59am
Msg #435762

Lenders and the others who deal with borrowers don't seem bother telling the borrowers they need a second form of ID from a particular list. It probably won't be a problem if the signing is at the borrowers home, but if it is at the borrower's workplace, or anywhere else away from home, finding an ID that happens to be on a particular list is apt to be a problem. And considering how often there are last-minute hitches in the paperwork, it would be smart to always allow for the signing to occur at some place other than the planned location.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 9/25/12 11:41am
Msg #435774

Re: Expired Passport ID ~ A little fun

<At least one of the documents used should be valid, government issued picture ID.>

Phew, Nattie! I was hoping California notaries weren't ALL THAT DIFFERENT -despite the quirky journal stuff, BGCs, what else? - from the rest of us (:

I understood your post to mean 2nd PIECE OF ID (as you stated).

Are you west coasters allowed to use Bic, papermate, pilot pens?? Or do they have to be any special brand? Do they need to be engraved just so? Just having a little fun . . . (:

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 9/25/12 12:19pm
Msg #435793

Gotta luv those papermates.... n/m

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 9/25/12 12:53pm
Msg #435809

Re: Expired Passport ID ~ A little fun

Hee, hee, Michelle. LOL. The answers to all your questions depend on the CA notary who answers them. Some will say, well, my interpretation is such and such; and others will say a definite "yes" and another will say a clear "no" and both sides will say they are right and there is no other answer but theirs. It's sad to see the "quirky journal stuff" has taken on gospel status on NR, the result of profound lecturing and fearmongering regarding a particular point of view. I clearly do not run in those circles. I was thinking about this exact situation the other day (not to digress from OP) as I was looking at the nearly two dozen journals that I soon will be turning into the county clerk as my golden years as an NSA approach and I leave the biz. If I had followed the "quirky journal stuff" interpretation, I'd probably be turning in at least six times that many more. And the idiocy of it all is that I have never had a request for a copy of one stitch of info from a journal; and once I turn them in, nobody will ever see them again. I had a signing with a county clerk employee who told me they toss the old journals in this storeroom and after a while they're all thrown away to make room for new ones. So all my diligence in writing down names, checking IDs, making endless notes and getting t-prints is all for nothing, it seems. So sad. Like throwing away old letters .... or hsitory. And then there are states that don't even require journals.
BTW, speaking of pens, I have never used a Bic or Papermate ballpoint or any other ballpoint in my entire career. I know this will shock the "my way or the highway crowd." But when I started out as an NSA, I worked for this one lender that required gel cos it cannot be erased like ballpoint. So I've always stuck with that ... I buy the (expensive) Pilot G2 pens you mentioned, cos they never smear. (Staples just had a 2 for 1 coupon. Yay!) Borrowers always want to steal them they write so easily. But so far, the CA SOS hasn't ruled on ink - or at least I haven't read that someone has interpreted that it has! Probably just a matter lf time, though.

Reply by Luckydog on 9/25/12 1:23pm
Msg #435817

Re: Expired Passport ID ~ A little fun

Simply use their DL and take the Costco card. Even though not a valid ID, it has her picture and name, and her DL serves for notarizing as her legal ID form. The 2nd is just a second form of ID with her name and picture. Not too many people have 2 required forms of legal ID. I myself do not. I would not use anything expired.