Posted by magnotary on 9/25/12 2:11pm
Msg #435839

ID issue

I had a Refi last night where the name on the DL didnt match the name on docs...I called the ss to let them know I did not feel comfortable completing Refi they said it was find just to make a note. However I just received a call from title telling me that I was wrong has anyone else experienced this? I did try to call title but they were already closed...

Reply by MistarellaFL on 9/25/12 2:23pm
Msg #435846

More info needed

Why do you think name must "match" the docs?
Was the name completely different?

Florida says you must have satisfactory evidence that the signer is the person named/signing.

Reply by NotaryAL/FL on 9/25/12 2:29pm
Msg #435847

FL notaries any comments?

So documents had a different name (first, middle or last)? was it similar to the ID? all documents had this different name even, the note and the mortgage?...
If the documents did not match the ID, and he did not had any other type of acceptable ID to prove the other name, I would have stop the signing.

Even if you do the AKA affidavit. Well if you tried calling tittle and there was no answer.. there was not much you could have done.

anyone else has any comments?

Reply by magnotary on 9/25/12 2:40pm
Msg #435850

Re: FL notaries any comments?

they used the abbr of his name which he does use(eg Joseph they put Joe). however for official docs like the mortgage i didnt want to have a discrepancy later. he has no other ID with that name which is why i called the ss and title. it was after 8pm also we looked at the paper work that they were given when they started the refi and it had 'Joseph' on it as well

Reply by Barb25 on 9/25/12 2:51pm
Msg #435853

Re: FL notaries any comments?

Are you saying he had ID in the name Joseph J Smith but the docs were Jot J Smith? Something like that?

Reply by MW/VA on 9/25/12 3:05pm
Msg #435854

Need some common sense in these matter, IMO.

People often assume the name "Mike" for Michael, for instance, and can even carry that on theie d/l's. That doesn't mean their legal name has changed, or that it's a different person. IMO notaries can make themselves total PIA's for not being able to be sensible about "different name" issues. At least you called. I hope you accepted their ok to go ahead with the "discrepancy".

Reply by Barb25 on 9/25/12 3:29pm
Msg #435855

Re: Need some common sense in these matter, IMO.

Agreed. Although sometimes the State can find something acceptable and the TC can reject it. An example, I went to a signing where the borrowers DL had expired 5 days previously. However, it had only been issued 4 years prior. Odd, but true. FL says it must be current or issued within 5 years. I called TC, said GMAC would not accept. We all went home.

I also have had signings where BO license has ie, John Smith, docs are John Q. Smith. I ask if he has any other ID showing middle initial. I almost don't care what it is. I notate this in my journal. And off we go. We are IDing the borrower, not the ID. So I only have to be as sure as I can be that this is who he says he is and I can I defend it if I ever have to do so. End of story.

If this borrower, name is Joe/Joseph... I wouldn't have much trouble IDing for FL. Whether the TC/Lender wants to accept that is another story.

My two cents.

Reply by MistarellaFL on 9/25/12 5:04pm
Msg #435870

Joe vs Joseph would have been satisfactory for my ID purpose n/m

Reply by CH2inCA on 9/25/12 3:30pm
Msg #435856

Re: ID issue the CA version...

I had a similar issue, I asked the borrower during my confirmation call if they had any Id that actually matched the docs, the answer was no. So I called my hiring party to let them know, just in case there were to be any changes before we proceeded. The LO (not the hiring party) then called me and fired me!! HUH?
Anyway, I wrote to to the CA SOS and this was their response:

"Thank you for your inquiry.

Pursuant to California Civil Code section 1185(3) which states in part… "Reasonable reliance of the presentation to the officer..." For example, it is normally reasonable to believe that if "Sam" is on the document, and is short for Samuel, which is on the identification, however if the id shows just Sam, the document could show S., Samuel, Samantha, etc. You need to have reasonable reliance that the person appearing before you is the same person who signed the document. Other elements on the identification such as photo, description, address, and signature can also be used to determine reasonable reliance. Sincerely,Notary Public Section"

Now I wish I'd kept my mouth shut and completed the job. ;0)

Reply by Barb25 on 9/25/12 4:27pm
Msg #435866

Dear CH2inCA

Hindsight is always 20/20. What do they call it Monday morning quarterbacking. In any event, some LO only think they are on loan from heaven. Give me a break. You are responsible for your own commission and whether or not you made the right decision at the time you had to act on your own instincts or knowledge or whatever. I have been told "this is what the lender wants" in circumstances when I have been asked to break the law... And I don't think that is what the lender wanted.. It was how the moron on the phone was trying to strong arm me into doing what they wanted. Regardless, I told them lender was going to have to take it up with the Governor of FL. It's a fine line we walk sometimes. Don't beat yourself up. We never know it all. Sorry it happened but many of us have benefited from your experience. Even you.

And that LO is probably still an idiot.

Reply by dgd/CA on 9/25/12 3:37pm
Msg #435857

My heart hurt for you. It seems to me that you're just starting out and in need of two things, one is compassion the other is knowledge. The SS had a person "manning" the phones that had no idea what they were talking about, quite frankly, the after hours people don't earn much and are paid to follow mgmts edict: get that package signed, while I would have preferred you closed your eyes for just a moment to recall the requirement from your class instructor or your handbook, you did what you were instructed to do. Your instinct was excellent, next time you'll know to follow it. If the signers ID didn't match, then, credible witnesses could have (perhaps) been utilized for this purpose. Our number one responsibility as a Notary Public is to properly identify the individual(s). It doesn't matter if it is for a document signing, or General Notary Work. If you haven't satisfied yourself, that that is indeed the individual whose name appears for signature, then you cannot do it for anyone else. This has obviously caused you to agonize, you wanted to perform well, but it didn't work out. There is always "the next time." Keep your handbook close and always remember, no matter what, odds are you're going to know more about what you do than anyone else sitting before you. After all this time, I keep a copy of mine in my case. Never fear referring to it, especially if you're in conflict. Never forget the errors that you make, always correct them at no charge, continue to learn from them. :-)

Reply by dgd/CA on 9/25/12 3:41pm
Msg #435859

P.S. given the circumstances, I would have continued with the signing as well. lol, by the time I finished my (much interrupted post) many good minds responded.

Reply by CarolF/NC on 9/25/12 5:21pm
Msg #435874

Re:According to NNA you were right

Thanks for the question. NC only requires "satisfactory evidence" and in your case, I would think Joe for Joseph was "satisfactory". NNA signing course states that the name on the document may be more, but not less than that on their ID. ie Joseph P. Smith could be written Joseph Smith on the documents, but that the first and last names on the ID MUST match those on the documents. I would have had the same concern as you and most likely would not have completed the signing.

Reply by rengel/CA on 9/25/12 5:30pm
Msg #435878

Again, the NNA is not the authority in California.

They are a private company in the notary public field. The NNA does not issue notary public commissions, nor can they rescind notary public commissions.

People, please stop citing NNA as the be all, end all authority on all things notary public.

The final authority in California and most other states is the Secretary of State.

My .02

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/25/12 5:47pm
Msg #435881

...or anywhere else.

They do a good job of marketing themselves as being an authority, and they have helped with SOME important (imo) legislative matters because of their marketing capabilities. Mostly, I haven't found them to be terribly helpful at all, and I've never consulted them on anything. I do monitor things they publish, though, only because so many notaries do follow them, it's important to know what they're putting out there.

But yeah... ever since I realized that they will background check, certify and LIST an individual as a Notary Signing Agent on their website without even verifying that they are a currently commissioned notary... well... that kind of says a lot, don't you think?

Reply by MW/VA on 9/25/12 8:06pm
Msg #435901

Yes, from personal experience, they're the LAST source

of info I'd rely on. They are known for inaccurate info.

Reply by CarolF/NC on 9/25/12 6:04pm
Msg #435887

Re: Again, the NNA is not the authority in California.

call the sos in NC and they will tell you they don't govern loan docs or title companies. call the county recorders office where it will record. Agreed, the NNA is not the all being, but most states do not regulate your signing work. They issue your commission. They don't train you to act as a signing agent.

Reply by jba/fl on 9/25/12 9:48pm
Msg #435914

That is absolutely true Carol F - The XYZ, commonly known as

due to respect to Notary Rotary and their scuffles with this Org, does not, I repeat, NOT rock. They are a great source of misinformation, and some of their training manuals have incorrect information inside so that you can learn your "job" incorrectly.

Their level of respect by those who know better is rock bottom. Very few belong to their org. any more due to their deceptive, manipulating nature. But, don't take my word for it - do use the orange Search button here and see what others have been saying over the YEARS about them and why they do not belong to them and have great disregard for them. Lined up, there is probably a mile of reading to do.

Notary Rotary has a wonderful training course here; this forum is a great wealth of information as well. If you were to read here what is suggested to you, you would never run out of the nuggets you would find. One of our members I'm thinking of right now trains people and mentors them, and you again would find her using the orange search button. Since she is direct competition for NotRot I will not name her, but you can search and find. It is all about what you want. Do you know what you want?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 9/25/12 5:57pm
Msg #435884

Re: Re:According to NNA you were right

"NNA signing course states that the name on the document may be more, but not less than that on their ID"

Isn't that backward? Isn't it supposed to be (or purported) that you want MORE on the ID than on the docs?


Also, my .02 FWIW - if it was as simple as Joe/Joseph, I'd have completed the signing and no call to title necessary. In this type of case, NNA is NOT right.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/25/12 6:20pm
Msg #435890

Re: Re:According to NNA you were right

I'm with you, Linda... there is no law in any state, that I'm aware, that says the name MUST match exactly as written in a document. That's just crazy. Even in California, nothing says that it has to "match" -- only for acknowledgments must we be reasonably certain (via satisfactory evidence) that the person described in the document is the person signing.

And CA law defines "satisfactory evidence" as "the absence of information, evidence, or other circumstances that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the person making the acknowledgment is not the individual he or she claims to be..."

That doesn't mean that names must match exactly from ID to document. We just have to use our common sense and reason.

But that is EXACTLY why when I fill out my notarial certificates, I write down the name on the ID, just in case the person in front of me is *not* the person they claim to be. I have no absolute way of knowing that. But, common sense takes a role.

If a document says, "Bobby O. Brown" and the guy in front to me has an ID that says Robert Olgelby Brown, I have no reason to believe that he is not Bobby O Brown -- I mean, duh. But you darn well bet I'm not going to write "Bobby O Brown" on my certificate. Nope... I would write "Robert Olgebly Brown".

And no... I've never, once had anyone get upset about it or had a document rejected because names didn't "match" -- some things are just common sense.

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/25/12 8:00pm
Msg #435899

Re: Re:According to NNA you were right

<<<If a document says, "Bobby O. Brown" and the guy in front to me has an ID that says Robert Olgelby Brown, I have no reason to believe that he is not Bobby O Brown -- I mean, duh.>>>

I think about this type of discussion each time I see an ID with the nickname variation as the name. (i.e. Ken on DL instead of Kenneth). I see a lot of this because I do a lot of GNW. Yesterday, I notarized for a guy whose DL showed Ken as the first name. A few months ago, a young lady's DL first name read "Kim". I did ask her if her name is actually Kimberly and she said NO. I asked her about her birth certificate and she said that shows "Kim", not Kimberly.

Those aren't the only two clients I've notarized for with nickname variations as their birth names. Because of this, I'm not sure I'd accept Bob for Robert, or Mike for Michael or Bill for William. Yes, those are common nicknames but for notarization purposes, can't say I'd accept that.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/25/12 8:28pm
Msg #435906

Re: Re:According to NNA you were right

I'm not convinced that focusing on minor name variations really protects people. I mean, what is the chance that Bobby O. Brown will obtain information about a stranger named Robert Olgelby Brown that will allow Bobby to cheat Robert by impersonating Robert before me? In the case of relatives, yes, the risk is greater, but so often, the names are identical so there are no variations to clue one in that there is a problem.

I really believe focusing on other circumstances is more likely to provide protection. If the signing occurs on the address listed on the ID and on the loan, instead of a Starbucks, that goes a long way toward proving you have the right person. If the age of the person fits in with the information in the legal description about previous property transfers, that gives some more evidence. I would truly feel more comfortable accepting Bobby on the ID and Robert on the deed, while sitting in the right house, with the house address on the ID, with a signer who is 70 years old and bought the property 40 years ago, than I would be signing with a deed and ID that both say Robert Olgelby Brown, while sitting in a Killington base lodge and the signing concerns a nearby condo that was bought 4 years ago.

Of course, we're not detectives and it isn't our job to drive around town gathering information on our signers. But if something pops out at us, we should pay attention.

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/25/12 10:21pm
Msg #435917

Re: Re:According to NNA you were right

I mostly do GNW, at Starbucks and hospitals/rehab centers. Some of the docs are real estate related, or affidavits of some sort. For loan signings, you make excellent points, VT Syrup.

Reply by Barb25 on 9/25/12 6:36pm
Msg #435892

Re: Re:According to NNA you were right

I think magnotary may be losing sight of the fact that what she considers a discrepancy in ID and a formal name like Joseph vs Joe on the mortgage, it is about how he is vested in the property. If it's Joe it's Joe and you are right no call. This refers to her second comment above

Reply by CarolF/NC on 9/25/12 6:53pm
Msg #435894

Re: @Linda H/FL

absolutely right. name on id can be more, not less. me bad. typo. where the heck is the delete button for these posts or the correct button?

Reply by jba/fl on 9/25/12 9:54pm
Msg #435915

There is no delete button - you get to be wrong through

perpetuity.

Reply by leeinla on 9/25/12 11:45pm
Msg #435922

What about names that are unisex? Sam( can be short for Samantha, Sammy, Samuel, or just Sam)
Another example would be the name Tracy, some men have that name. I know we have to use common sense, but what about identity theft and mortgage fraud. I would notarize Joe for Joseph, but I don't know about the name Sam because it could have so many variations.

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/26/12 7:13am
Msg #435935

"what about identity theft and mortgage fraud"

One of these days, I will learn to be quiet about this. Today is not the day.

I cannot find one source to cite a case of mortgage fraud where a similar ID was accepted by a notary and used to commit mortgage fraud.

Every time I post this, people pm me about things that do not relate to this...their pms relate to a lot of other things, but I have never received a cite to a case of mortgage fraud where James J. Miller stole James Jonathan Miller's property, or anything close to it.

FAKE IDs exist. But, if they were designed to steal a piece of property or to do a REFI, for crying out loud, the FAKES would be better than that.

See VT's posts. I've said the same thing before, but for some reason, people seem to pay better attention when he says it. Good! At any rate...use your head and common sense. Don't get caught up in the hype.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/26/12 7:28am
Msg #435937

BrendaTx wrote "See VT's posts. I've said the same thing before, but for some reason, people seem to pay better attention when he says it." I would have said the reverse. But I share BrendaTx's wish for citations to real examples of these otherwise hypothetical scenarios.

Reply by BrendaTx on 9/26/12 12:14pm
Msg #435994

"I would have said the reverse."

Thanks, VT. You said it better. I always use 5671 more words than I should.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/26/12 7:19am
Msg #435936

I wouldn't think about the name variation in a vacuum. An ID that says Sam Smith and a document that says Samuel Smith would be enough to get started, but because it's a pretty common name, it wouldn't be unreasonable to refuse. So I'd look at the other circumstances. Is there another ID? If its an application for a child's birth certificate, is there a kid hanging about of the right age calling the signer dad? Does the address on the ID match the location of the signing? Etc.

Reply by bagger on 9/26/12 8:11am
Msg #435940

This topic comes up about once a week.

We are checking ID's to verify that the person in front of us is the person on the document.

Does anyone ever look at the picture?
If the name is close and the picture matches, then DUH you are looking at the correct person!

Reply by jba/fl on 9/26/12 10:39am
Msg #435971

I do -

I look at the photo, I look at the signature after they sign something, I look all around the house for personal items that are personalized, (diplomas, awards, etc.) and see if they look about 45 (or whatever quick subtraction gives me) to decide if Sam is Samantha or Samuel.

This really is not brain surgery. Key word: reasonable. Am I reasonably convinced?