Posted by JustANotary on 9/23/12 3:00pm
Msg #435561

Short Signatures

I am always warning borrowers about short signatures, that they must sign the way they take title. They must include the middle initial if they took title that way, and the names must signed longer than just an initial. Usually people do sign the way I ask them to, but often they do not, and when they do not, usually the package is accepted anyway.

So... here is my question. What lenders are known to accept a short signature, and what lenders do not?

Reply by Clem/CA on 9/23/12 4:26pm
Msg #435575

Did the sig match their ID?

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/23/12 4:57pm
Msg #435581

Really, the lender doesn't have a choice. A signature, is a signature, is a signature. There was a discussion a few weeks ago about illegible vs. legible vs. sign name printed on docs. I did some general notary work and the wife's full name had more letters in it than the entire alphabet, yet her signature was a loop and a dot.

You can only advise the signer of the instructions from the TC, then the ball is in the signer's court. This is one reason I always send back a copy of the ID, whether it's asked for or not. I've had signer's print their name as their signature, not include their middle initial, or insist they are going to sign *their* way. When their signature matches the copy of the ID I include with the package, but isn't necessarily legible or doesn't include their middle initial, I don't get the phone call from the TC questioning *me* about the borrower's signature. JMHO

Reply by Barb25 on 9/23/12 6:03pm
Msg #435586

This is also what the Signature/Name affidavit is all about

If it is in the package and it is signed there should never be a problem.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/23/12 6:12pm
Msg #435587

Re: This is also what the Signature/Name affidavit is all about

The signature/name affidavit is not recorded. If for any reason the names listed in the body of a recordable instrument, typed under the signature lines, signed, or listed in the acknowledgement certificate or jurat, are not acceptable to the official who is recording the instrument, the name affidavit will not help because that official will not see it.

Reply by Barb25 on 9/23/12 7:24pm
Msg #435590

Re: This is also what the Signature/Name affidavit is all about

What? I don't understand what you are saying. If I sign two swirls and say this is my legal signature. That is what the Signataure affidavit is for. I don't understand your point. If I write it our clearly abcdef. What difference does that make in recording as to who I am. I am not getting your point.

And besides that is what the notary is for.... To acknowledge.

The signature affidavit states that the person is stating This is my legal name and my legal signature. It is a sworn statement.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/23/12 7:35pm
Msg #435591

Re: This is also what the Signature/Name affidavit is all about

I don't know if there are any jurisdictions out there that will refuse to record a document if it is "undersigned", that is, if "John Fenimore Doe" is typed under the signature line but Mr. Doe legibly signs "John F Doe". But if there are any recording officials who are rejecting this type of signature, the name affidavit won't help because the recording official won't see it.

Reply by Barb25 on 9/23/12 9:03pm
Msg #435597

Re: This is also what the Signature/Name affidavit is all about

I hear what you are saying and you are making a good point but a signature is a signature. How would you explain a person whose signature you cannot decipher at all. Years ago I had a borrower who insisted (for the sake of this conversation) insisted her signature was L. Smith not Lois Smith. The bank said as long as she signed the Signature affidavid L Smith, it was find. That was the way she signed everything including drivers license. Also includes people who sign two curly cues and say this is Joe Brown. We as notaries acknowledge that this is so.

The recording parties take this as such. This will only come into play if we are ever called into court at a later date but certainly the recording party is taking our word until tha time.

If I am incorect, I certainly can handle that. But to date, this has always worked.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/23/12 9:31pm
Msg #435599

Re: This is also what the Signature/Name affidavit is all about

I think if it ever went to court, and it was established the signer did indeed sign, it wouldn't matter what they wrote. But if it doesn't really matter what they write, then why are all those instructions from title companies insisting that if the signature is legible, it must match whatever is typed under the signature line? Is it some kind of folklore that is spreading among the title companies, or are the title companies encountering real problems and the instructions are meant to avoid these real problems?

Reply by Barb25 on 9/24/12 7:19am
Msg #435606

Re: This is also what the Signature/Name affidavit is all about

And if it is not legible? Also why are you in court? For bad penmanship?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/24/12 7:38am
Msg #435608

Re: This is also what the Signature/Name affidavit is all about

If it is not legible, people (correctly, in my opinion) seem to suppose the signer signed whatever is typed under the signature line.

Some reasons deeds end up in court:

1. The purported signer claims forgery.

2. The purported signer is dead, and someone who would have inherited were it not for the deed the property alleges forgery.

3. The signer goes bankrupt. There is a federal law that lets the bankruptcy trustee act as if he had purchased the property. The bankruptcy trustee will often sue to invalidate the mortgage, arguing that the name on the mortgage does not give adequate notice to subsequent purchasers that the mortgage exists. For example, John Quincy Adams buys a house and gets a first mortgage. Then he refinances, but the name on the refi mortgage is John Quincy Atam. The bankruptcy trustee seeks to invalidate the mortgage, arguing that a person searching for Adams won't find Atam. If the bankruptcy trustee wins, the money from the sale of the house is divided among all the creditors instead of all of it going to the bank that holds the refi mortgage.

Reply by Barb25 on 9/24/12 7:35am
Msg #435607

Seriously.

Listen I hear everything you are saying and I encourage signers who writer their names clearly (names where I can decipher each and every letter) to sign EXACTLY as it appears below the line (including a middle initial if their is one without if their is none). However, when they tell me that is not their signature and they show me their signature and it some windsock or chicken scratch. I ask that is the way you sign everything in life. And they say YES. I say fine. Are you telling me that say John Q. Public (whatever). They say YES again. I say sign that way on all the docs and also the Signature Affidavit.

The person has stated that is their LEGAL signature and that is what it says. And that is what the Signature affidavit also says.

If someone had to identify a signature other than how someone normally signs, it would certainly ceate a problem. But as we tell everyone I am not an attorney and well you know the rest.

It was never my intent to get into an argument over this. So I will state again on this part I am correct. This is what the Signature Affidavit is for. As for whether the borrower truly signed the document that is what you/me/the notary is all about. That's all.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/24/12 7:42am
Msg #435609

The idea that a person has one LEGAL signature...

... is comparable to the warm steaming material in the fields of my neighbor, the dairy farmer.

Reply by Barb25 on 9/24/12 7:49am
Msg #435610

Have a nice day n/m

Reply by Stoli on 9/24/12 2:48pm
Msg #435674

VT_Syrup - Thanks for the visual. n/m

Reply by JanetK_CA on 9/24/12 3:55pm
Msg #435683

Re: Seriously.

OK. I just did another quick skim of the series of posts by Barb25 and VT Syrup and I'm having a hard time finding where you disagree. I think you're each just focusing on a different side of the beast and arguing about parallel issues - one about the acceptability of squiggly signatures and the other about whether the Signature Affidavit helps when it comes to recording.

The only point of disagreement that I can see is about under which circumstances the Signature Affidavit makes a difference. I think VT Syrup is just trying to say that while it may make a difference for the lender, IF it's a recordable document and IF that recording agency requires a LEGIBLE signature to match the document, that the Sig Aff wouldn't help there, as they wouldn't even see - and wouldn't likely care, if they did.

Does that sound about right or did I miss something, too?

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/24/12 4:06pm
Msg #435684

Re: Seriously.

I agree with JanetK CA's summary. The signature affidavit helps to cover the lender's rear; for example, if the lender relied on a favorable credit report for John Henry Doe, and the deed is in the name of John Doe, and it later turns out the favorable credit report is about someone who has nothing to do with the property, the lender can always say "But look, John Doe swore right here that he is also known as John Henry Doe. We didn't screw up!"

If, on the other hand, it says "John Doe" all over the deed, except the notarial certificate, where it says "John H. Doe", and the recording official rejects it because of the mismatch, a name affidavit that includes "John H. Doe" won't help.

Reply by Barb25 on 9/24/12 8:55pm
Msg #435709

I don't think I want to get into this again. Especially

after the last comment. Because on that we totally disagree.

Having said that the topic got more than it deserved as others have stated.

In 12 years I have had one issue because a woman insisted on signing her name first initial and last name and said that is my signature. Showed my her drivers license, etc. And guess what I sent it in like that. But "Citibank" and TC had problem only because there was no Signature Affidavit in package. Now I am finished with this topic and if I see it again I will give it a wide birth. My original post was not to VT Syrup. And I should not have responded to his coment. He decided to take me on only I was dumb enough to keep answering him. A lesson learned. As Albert Einstein said Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Obviously, I was the one that was missing something.

Obviously his neighbors cow scenario was the most clear of all opinions. Also the most rude.

Reply by Barb25 on 9/24/12 9:32pm
Msg #435716

Just to be clear, by last comment

I was referring to "The idea that a person has one LEGAL signature..." made earlier this morning.

And as long as I am correcting my self and using idioms.. it is wide berth... not wide birth.... I have enough troubles... LOL

Reply by Nattienotary on 9/24/12 11:39pm
Msg #435727

Re: This is also what the Signature/Name affidavit is all about

the other day borrowers told me that every name printed on the doc was used at some point in their life. The doc had a line next to each name on the form and indicated a requested signature. The borrower said, " am i suppose to sign the way the name is printed?" I said yes. Is this correct even though she hasn't used those names in years? On another loan, it said if you have gone by any of these names to sign at the bottom. I took it as signing the name they use today. So confusing.

Reply by doglover/CA on 9/23/12 8:12pm
Msg #435593

A loan officer for Bank of America told me that what really counts is that whatever the borrower puts down as their signature is consistent throughout all the documents signed. At one signing I had at a bank branch, the borrower signed with what looked like three fish hooks. A week later I was at the same bank branch to do another signing and I overheard the loan officer say that the loan for the borrower who had signed with the three fish hooks had funded.

Reply by Bonnie/MO on 9/23/12 8:40pm
Msg #435596

I find that they sign the way their signature on their driver's license is.

Reply by Art_PA on 9/24/12 5:49am
Msg #435604

All that is required is that the signature be the signer's legal signature, for real estate and every other legal transaction. The only problem with a signature is when the borrower's signature is legible and the middle initial is omitted. If it can't be read, "it is in there".

Personally, I have notarized tens of thousands of documents, affixing my illegible signature which has never been questioned by any lender, title company, or recorder.

Stop worrying about this non-issue.

Reply by bfnotary on 9/24/12 7:53am
Msg #435612

This may be a little bit off topic, But I have a question for some of you notaries. Do any of you guys have a shorter version of your signatures that you use? I am thinking about shortening my signature next time I renew my drivers license, and when I renew my commission.. Since my signature is registered this way, I will keep it until I need to register it at the court house next time. We sign alot in any given day and I was curious if yall use full signatures or sloppy illegible ones. Lol.

Reply by jba/fl on 9/24/12 8:08am
Msg #435616

Yes, bf, I do

Last DL renewal I shortened my name to 4 letters, scrawled in lower case only so that I could place my pen on the paper and only pick it up when I was done. Then, the following year, I shortened on my commission application and it has been wonderful. The long sig took so much time and I was always behind at the table as there was just no way to hurry it up.

Your decision is based on pragmatic considerations - {applause}

Reply by bfnotary on 9/24/12 9:11am
Msg #435622

Re: Yes, bf, I do

Thanks, I was unsure if it was going to be a good decision. I still have a little more than 2 and half years to go before I renew commission, and a little over year and half for drivers license. I started thinking about this last week, when a signing package had 18 notarizations, that took forever to sign with full name. Well i have a couple years to find a signature that works for me. lol.

Reply by dgd/CA on 9/24/12 10:36am
Msg #435633

Re: Yes, bf, I do

My (initial) class instructor for Notary Public, discussed her very long name, and day to day signature, vs her notarial signature. It seemed to be a very good idea to shorten mine, I had a few minutes before the test, so I came up with something that has served me well.

Reply by Luckydog on 9/24/12 4:54pm
Msg #435690

Re: Yes, bf, I do

I have them sign to match the documents, not their DL. They cannot sign a shortened version, such as J. Doe for John Doe; even if that is their legal signature. I was told by title that because I was watching them sign, it needed to be a clear signature "exactly" as stated. If they have an issue, we call title, and then they end up doing as the instructions state. If it does not close because they do not sign a legible signature, it is on them. 99% cooperate, and the 1% are difficult anyways. lol

Reply by Alan Jorgensen on 9/24/12 9:32pm
Msg #435715

If I may relate my experience about my signature on the notarized documents. Being new I fell into my usual first, middle initial, last name signature. In California your full legal name is on the stamp. A recorder refused to accept a document I did unless it was corrected and signed to my full legal name. This caused some small inconvenience to my customer and great inconvenience to me to meet him at the county recorder to correct it (on his way home). I waited for the recorder to accept it and was surprised when my client gave me an additional tip for my trouble. I don't know what you hope to do by shorting your name as a notary when in my state this doesn't seem to fly.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/24/12 9:43pm
Msg #435719

So notaries around the country who do notarizations for California properties are wondering if the recorder is demanding legible signatures from all notaries, or if the recorder had your signature on file in that office and compared it to the file signature. Was the problem that the writing was so neat that the recorder could tell the mark in the middle of the signature was only an initial, and not a sloppily written middle name? Or was the problem that the signature didn't match what was on file?