Posted by wv/or on 9/6/12 11:29am
Msg #433366

Signatures

How do you have your borrowers sign their name? Do you have them sign it legibly, and not the way they usually sign their name or do you tell them they need to sign the way it appears below the line, even though sometimes it is not legible?

Reply by Clem/CA on 9/6/12 11:36am
Msg #433368

Follow the instructions given by title... tell them they need to sign the way it appears below the line

Reply by SharonMN on 9/6/12 11:38am
Msg #433369

I tell them to sign as printed (with/without middle initial, etc.) but I see no need to be the signature police and require legibility. Their usual sig works (and can be compared to the sig on the ID). If that's a squiggle, so be it. The problem arises when someone signs "Kat Smith" very neatly and the documents read "Katherine W. Smith" !

Reply by CopperheadVA on 9/6/12 11:42am
Msg #433370

I stopped telling people to "sign as printed" because they would think that I meant for them to PRINT their signature. This happened so many times that I re-trained myself to say "sign as typed".

Reply by Roadie_MD on 9/6/12 11:43am
Msg #433372

I agree with Sharon. Have them sign exactly as it appears, including AKA, FKA, etc. and if it's illegible, then all the better for you. The most difficult are the first initial/last name signatures. if it looks like they didn't write out their full name, they have to sign it the way it's printed.

Reply by CentralNY on 9/6/12 11:55am
Msg #433375

i had a co. tell me to practice writing the bo's signature in cursive before the signing. funny. i just ask the bo to have the signature be as legible as posssible for the bank to avoid a resign if the bank is that pickey.

Reply by F2F/FL on 9/7/12 6:38am
Msg #433483

Re: I had a first last night

and I am wondering if is a new form to watch out for.
My 8pm Re-fi last night and getting close to the end of the 147 pages and all of a sudden the line for the notary to sign on has a feature under the line that I have never seen or filled out before. Then it dawned on me "did I miss this all the way through this large package and now I have to go back and check each one?" The wife's shoulder's kind of dropped like OH NO.
I will try and duplicate it here for you and you can maybe tell me if this is new or at least I will be helping others to watch for it in the future. BTW I went back and it was only the last 3 forms that had this new area to be filled out by the notary public at signing.

_____________________________________________________
Signed signature in the state of:
NOTARY PUBLIC

One more question, if I had missed putting in the state name here could they have called me on this and said that it was not correctly signed? Any feedback would be appreciated.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/6/12 12:06pm
Msg #433377

There are some pros and cons, from the signer's point of view, to signing as typed instead of their usual scrawl.

On the pro side, it's the lender who will want to prove a signature is genuine. In case of a dispute, a handwriting expert will compare known genuine signatures to the questioned signature. If there are no known genuine typed-as-signed signatures, only genuine scrawls, the lender won't be able to prove the signature and won't be able to enforce whatever document bears the unproven signature.

On the negative side, after the signing, some forgery might appear out of the blue that has nothing to do with the land or mortgage. It looks nothing like the usual scrawl. The forgery victim says "I always sign with my scrawl", but the person trying to prove the signature says "No you don't. Look at these deed copies I got from the county courthouse; you didn't sign the deeds with scrawls." That could be a real problem if the forger looked up those deeds too and imitated the signature on the deeds. The forgery will probably not be accepted as genuine in the end, but it could take longer for the victim to win.

But realistically, there seem to be very few cases where there is a genuine question about a signature. Usually investigation of the surrounding circumstances will reveal a forgery without having to examine the appearance of the signature. Yes, there are all kinds of instances of one person signing for another when that isn't technically allowed, but usually the person who should have signed is happy with the end result and there is no legal case.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 9/6/12 1:31pm
Msg #433407

<<< Yes, there are all kinds of instances of one person signing for another when that isn't technically allowed, but usually the person who should have signed is happy with the end result and there is no legal case. >>>

So, you're saying that one can forge someone's signature, but if it's in the best interests of the person whose signature is being forged, it's not a criminal act ... but in fact a helpful act because the forger is completing a document for the person who should have signed and is not harming that person in any way, but quite the opposite ...

I know, TCs and lenders do this all the time. But then they have often have LTD POA to "sign" for the borrower.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/6/12 1:53pm
Msg #433412

There are varying levels of criminal acts, ranging from felonies to violations. A criminal act usually requires intent; one intends to do an act that will have certain results and the act is against the law. The laws of the various states specify exactly what acts are against the law, and usually there is more to it than just signing someone else's name without explicit permission.

Then there are torts. If you cause harm to someone else when you shouldn't have, you are likely to lose a civil lawsuit. You don't have to intend harm, it can be a mistake or negligence.

Finally, you haven't committed a criminal act or a tort until a court says you have.

Obviously if you sign someone else's name when you don't have permission, or when the law says you can't, you are placing yourself at risk. The better you know the person who is supposed to sign, the better you can weigh the risk.

Reply by HisHughness on 9/6/12 12:10pm
Msg #433379

It's quite simple, really

Examine their signatures in your journal; if you don't keep a journal, have them sign their names for you.

Don't worry if the signatures are illegible. The one thing you need to be sure of is the number of components to a signature. If a signature obviously has only two components, tell them to add a squiggle representing a middle name or middle initial if that is the way the name is typed. If the signature has three components and the typed name has only two, tell them to drop the center component.

That way, you don't slow down a signing by requiring the borrowers to sign a legible signature, and they're happy because they get to use what they regard as their "legal" signature (though to repeat something I've said here many times, there is no such thing). The approach has worked for me for years; I've never had any complaints.

Reply by jba/fl on 9/6/12 12:27pm
Msg #433384

I don't care how they squiggle or are super legible...the one thing I look for is consistency, and does it reasonably look like what they signed on their identifying document. (DL, passport, etc) If this is their norm, it is their way of signing, who am I to tell them to sign something different? That would be forcing them to do something out of the ordinary for them.

I have never had a reject - if K. Smith is how they sign Katherine M. Smith on their DL (etc) and they remain consistent with these documents, that is what is signed. Since I use 4 letters, all lower case to sign my full name, that is all anyone ever gets out of me....including all the variations on Signature Affidavits. Well, that last statement is not entirely true as I only use one name and all others are not used by me, and I then sign "never known as".

K.I.S.S.
Legal schmegal.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 9/6/12 1:18pm
Msg #433401

Amen, Hugh

<....."legal" signature (though to repeat something I've said here many times, there is no such thing). ...."

I don't know if there is such a thing, but if there is, as far as I can see, it's the signature at the moment they're signing something.

Whenever I run into an exceedingly obstreperous signer, i.e. they insist on clearly signing "Chris Smith" when the sig line reads "Christoper Meathead Smith" and then start whining "this is my legal signature!" I (silently) groan. Or they start with: "This is how I always sign!" I'm not interested in how they "always" sign. I'm not interested in what they consider their "legal signture." One's signature is what it is at the moment that one is signing. It doesn't have to match what's on their ID (in fact, stop shoving your ID in my face, saying that's how you always sign; that was how you signed when you got your DL. I'm not interested in how you signed yesterday or how you're going to sign tomorrow; I care how you're signing right now.)

Chris Smith can sign his checks or passport or the debit card machine at the grocery store with what he considers his legal signature, but for purposes of the mortgage his "legal signature"(if there is such a thing) is Christopher Meathead Smith.

That's why I LOVE, unreadable squiggle sigs - nobody can ever say how they signed or didn't sign their name and you can avoid all this "legal signature" baloney.

Reply by rengel/CA on 9/6/12 3:01pm
Msg #433421

Which is why.

when we applied for our mortgage, I only put my first and last name on the application. That is how I sign my name and I didn't want to have to sign with a middle name or initial on so many pages.

My .02

Reply by Joe/NC on 9/6/12 1:52pm
Msg #433411

I ask the borrowers to please sign as legible as possible as it is typed, that especially the deed or mortgage has to be because it gets recorded.

Many people say this is my signature and most of the time it is illegible, I even had an nfl player tell me that he always does it this way, I told him it is fine when signing AUTOGRAPHS but when it is legal documents your signature shgould be a clear as possible for the document to be recorded.

I know since we are notaries we are there to witness signatures so we are attesting that the person before us did sign these docs and we took prrof of their id but many title companies ask for this to be legible.

Joe/nc

Reply by jnew on 9/6/12 2:11pm
Msg #433415

One of my customers includes a signature affidavit to be used if the signing agent can not determine if the signer actually included all of the components of the name as shown on the document. The name as shown on the document is printed below the line and he signs the same way he signed the loan documents. I don't know if it will work in all cases, but it seems to be a valid defense of having to return and get the package signed again (at my expense)

Reply by HisHughness on 9/6/12 2:51pm
Msg #433419

***when it is legal documents your signature shgould be a clear as possible for the document to be recorded ... many title companies ask for this to be legible...

I have never had a signature come back to me because it was illegible. I have never had a title company tell me signatures had to be legible. Many signers, in fact, have deliberately developed illegible signatures because they have been told, by their bankers or others, that such signatures are more difficult to forge.

Reply by NotaryGirl71 on 9/6/12 4:01pm
Msg #433428

If their signature is legible then they must sign as their name appears…if their signature is not legible, then they sign their signature. I have completed over 5,000 signings and have done it this way the entire time and have NEVER encountered a problem.

I have had people that sign their name legibly that REFUSED to sign as their name appears on the documents. I just let them know that the lender may require a full re-draw and that it would be basically on them because I gave them proper instructions.

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/6/12 8:33pm
Msg #433457

Recently, I completed a few GNW docs for a couple. His name was short. Her name had more letters than the entire alphabet. It was something like Maryelizabeth Sueellenjane Littleyellowschoolhouse and her signature was literally one loop with a dot next to it. If the appt is a loan signing, I'd relay the TC's instructions - however, if the borrower says she's signing the way she signs everything else then that's what the TC gets....the borrower and the TC can battle it out.

Reply by Claudine Osborne on 9/6/12 9:46pm
Msg #433465

I have the borrowers sign as it is typed..If their names are a scribble or a bleep or a blurp and it matches whats on their IDs..then thats their signatures..period. As Hugh stated..I have never had a redraw because of this not have I ever had instructions stating that the signature had to be legible..A signature is unique to the signer period..How can that be contested?

The problem I often encounter is putting a middle initial in when the BO doesn't usually use one or vice versa..That messes them up! Most of the time there is a Signature Aff in the documents.

Reply by NJDiva on 9/6/12 11:25pm
Msg #433476

I don't ever give instructions on how to sign the doc's

until after they've signed my log. Once they've signed my log and I know that I have their "authentic" (for whatever that's worth) signature, I then pass on the instructions that I am given.

Many times those instructions are in BOLD FULL CAPS (and sometimes even italicized too!). I make sure to show it to the bo's and explain that I intentionally did not relay those instructions until after I had gotten their normal signature. If there are more protests, I tell them that "it's not my guideline, it's the financial institutions, the title companies, but most importantly it's the counties that require it. One thing you don't want is for the county to reject the mortgage; they can be incredibly picky. It's just easier to appease them and not have to worry about signing everything all over again."

If they claim that they can say they didn't sign the doc's, I tell them, "no, my signature and stamp stands up in court and I have the signature in my log that matches their ID. It's how those entities can get away with requiring it. Plus there is the Signature and Name Affidavit. If they would feel more comfortable, they are welcome to sign that with their normal signature."

I actually had a bo tell me that her mortgage was rejected by the county because she did not include her middle initial and that it all had to be resigned. So when I asked her to sign as it appeared below the line, she said "you don't have to tell me, I learned my lesson." I couldn't believe it when she told me. I had never had that happen, so when she said it it really made an impact on me. I will even use it as an example when I'm requesting signature's matching.

Then there are times when if someone is really adamant about signing their way, I just say, "look, I'm a notary public, I can't tell you to sign your name any way other than your signature or how you feel comfortable, but they threaten to cut my pay if I don't make sure the doc's are executed the way they want them. So I'm sure you can understand why I am being so thorough and following their direction." Most times people will realize that it's not something I want them to do and that I'm just trying to get the job done and done right. I say to the bo's "it keeps them happy and me in business. If I do it to their satisfaction, they keep calling me for more" with a wink and a smile.

I don't go on and on. I don't say it all, I'll use different techniques for different situations. But quite honestly, if someone is already feeling suspicious or uncomfortable because of a bad experience, I don't even mention it unless there are the situations with the middle initial or sig's with just initials. Other than that, I want to de-escalate and put the borrower at ease, not make them more suspicious.

Again, my main goal is to get the job done to the title's expectations. I don't care about anything but that (as long as it's legal, ethical and on the up and up.)

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/7/12 7:02am
Msg #433485

Re: I don't ever give instructions on how to sign the doc's

NJDiva tells us about one second-hand report of a county rejecting a signature for lack of a middle initial. Are there other verifiable instances of land record offices refusing to record documents because the handwritten signature didn't match the computer-printed signature? Or is it mostly a myth circulating among the people in the lenders and title companies that provide these signature instructions to us?

I haven't done nearly as many signings as others on this board, so my experience doesn't count. I've looked at some land record office websites; I've seen cases where they require the name written in the notary's certificate of acknowledgement match the name computer-printed beneath the grantor's signature. I've seen requirements for original, not photocopied, signatures. But I've never seen a requirement that the signature match the computer-printed name.

Reply by NJDiva on 9/7/12 10:54am
Msg #433513

"I've never seen a requirement..."

Do ya really have to see it to believe it? lol

I don't need proof, I just need a company telling me that if I don't follow their instructions, then my pay "may"--"will" be reduced. I don't care what their reasons are. As long as it's not against the law, puts my integrity in jeopardy, and is ethical, it's really no big thing to me. If that's what they want, that's what I give them.

Reply by VT_Syrup on 9/7/12 11:05am
Msg #433516

Re: "I've never seen a requirement..."

I agree, if the client has a lawful, ethical request, I'll do it, even if I suspect it is silly. And I do believe your report that one land records office rejected one borrower's documents. I'm just curious if it is commonplace or if it is an urban legend.

I don't put too much weight on one report, because even though I believe the report, it could have been a poorly trained clerk who was not carrying out that office's policy correctly.