Posted by DaveCA/CA on 9/29/12 3:38pm
Msg #436490

acknowledgment or jurat wording on the same page as signatur

Will you please remind me about the rule on this? Since the beginning of this year, I have been stapling an acknowledgment or jurat (whichever is required) to documents where the wording is correct.

Also, I thought, and this is where I need help because I tried to find it, that if the notarial wording is not on the same page as the signature being notarized, I had to staple, even if the wording is correct. (ie, Deed of Trust, Compliance Agreement, etc) Sometimes, the client signs page 1 and the correct notarial wording is on page 2.

Please tell me exactly where this is? I looked at the newsletter but... Thanks

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 9/29/12 4:24pm
Msg #436492

HUH?

Not sure exactly what you're asking (not your fault, just my befuddled mind), but if the signature is on one page, there can be an accompanying notarial certificate on a following, separate page. The signature and the certificate do not need to be on the same page, nor do you need to add a loose-leaf if the wording on the accompanying certificate is CA compliant. (Why would you do that? If you thought the signature and notarial wording had to be on the same page, then by adding a loose-leaf, the signature and certificate are still on two pages ....??) In any case, perhaps you are confusing this with the recent SOS edict that the notarial certificate, if preprinted, cannot be split over two pages, such as I just ran across in an affidavit in a loan package. So, in my case, the borrower signed on one page, but I had to add a loose-leaf so that all the notarial verbiage was on one page (even tho the notarial verbiage was correct on the affidavit, it was just split over two pages). So is this what you were asking ....?

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/29/12 4:38pm
Msg #436497

I don't think it matters whether the compliant cert is from you or already included with the doc. If the signature is on a separate page from the cert, the two pages should be stapled together. JMHO

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 9/29/12 5:35pm
Msg #436503

Goldgirl, sorry it was poorly worded. Really, I thought I read that if the notarial wording was not on the same page as the signer's signature, you must staple the ack or jurat. In other words, say, on a Grant Deed, if the signatures are on page one and all of the notarial wording is on page two, you must staple it. If signatures and notarial wording on same page, stapling is not required. Where is that? I thought I read it in a newsletter and now when I reread it, it didn't read quite the same way as I remembered it.

Reply by pat/WA on 9/29/12 7:50pm
Msg #436517

I have never stapled the acknowledgment or Jurat to the document containing the signature. I just verify that the acknowledgmen or jurat stipulates that I am notarizing the proper document that contains the signers signature.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/29/12 9:27pm
Msg #436528

Pat, the stapling thing is a relatively new requirement for notaries in California. It was in the 2012 newsletter (pages 2 and 4), where we were told that if we attach a loose certificate we must staple it. Paperclips and tape are a no-no. We were also told that the entire notarial certificate must be on one page.

See: http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/forms/notary-newsletter-2012.pdf

"The certificate of acknowledgment, including your signature and impression of your official seal, must be completely on one page. The official seal is not to be stamped on a separate page of the
document. The certificate of acknowledgment must be in the English language only. A certificate of acknowledgment written in a foreign language is not acceptable.The certificate of acknowledgment must be endorsed on or stapled to the instrument. Taping or paper-clipping the certificate of acknowledgment to the document is not permitted."

and

"The entire jurat, including your signature and stamp, must be on one page. The official seal is not to be stamped on a separate page of the document. The jurat must be in the English language only. A jurat written in a foreign language is not acceptable. The jurat must be endorsed on or stapled to the instrument. Taping or paper-clipping the jurat to the document
is not permitted."

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 9/29/12 7:51pm
Msg #436518

Oh, I see that you're saying. As far as I know, there is absolutely no requirement that the signer's signature and your ack/jurat must be on the same page. That could just never be. I think that maybe you're confusing this with the recent SOS ruling that OUR signature must be on the same page as the ack/jurat. In other words, the ack could not start on one page and finish up on another. The ack, our sig and seal must be completely on one page. Also, as to stapling, the SOS said the ack must be "endorsed on" or stapled to the instrument. I took that to mean that if the sig page and the ack page are separate, they need to be stapled. However, I don't take that literally. For example, if the ack page is numbered Page 15 of 15 for the deed of trust, I don't staple; I consider that "endorsed on." However, if I add my own ack/jrt page, I staple. However, if you want to staple ack pages that come with the loan pkg and that are clearly identified as going with a preceding signature page, I'm sure that's fine, too....

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/29/12 9:19pm
Msg #436525

If the supplied notary certificate happens to fall on the last page of a document, and is obviously numbered as such, then that's fine. We see this a lot with Deeds of Trust. It's usually always listed as page X of X. In those cases, you're not adding anything to the document.

I also see this a lot with Advance Healthcare Directives, where the Notary Page is located on a page following the the signer, but before the witnesses.

There is no requirement that the certificate actually be one that same page as the signature page, at least as far as I can tell.

The recent information we've been given about stapling refers to those cases when we, as notaries, have have to ADD pages to a document. We're told, "The certificate of acknowledgment must be endorsed on or stapled to the instrument." The "instrument" is the entire document, not the signature page. So, if the original acknowledgment certificate is adequate, even if it falls on another page, and it is clearly part of the instrument, you're fine. You don't need to staple anything or even add a new page. Just use the supplied wording.

You only need to add an additional page when the wording does NOT comply with CA law and you are unable to add it to the document directly, such as with a jurat stamp or by writing it in. It's when you add that additional page that you need to staple it.

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 9/29/12 9:43pm
Msg #436533

Thanks for your help and one more thing

ha ha ha. Okay, I really do appreciate you setting me straight. I think I misread that new law. When I add ack or jurat because of improper wording, the stapler comes out.

Marian, will you most that picture again with the compliance wording stamp you have and did you get that here on Notary Rotary? I think it's time that I start stamping that little phrase that you have. Thanks, dave

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/29/12 9:45pm
Msg #436535

Yuu mean this one?

http://www.highdesertnotary.com/images/attachstamps.jpg

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/29/12 9:49pm
Msg #436536

Re: Yuu mean this one?

BTW, no I didn't get them here. I actually had them custom made for me. They save me a ton of time and save a lot of questions about why I end up attaching loose forms because the code is right there for them to look up.

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/29/12 11:52pm
Msg #436548

<<<It's when you add that additional page that you need to staple it.>>>

I do not read that in the newsletter - that sentence on page two does not specify that the notarial cert that requires stapling is one the notary added. Sorry, but I don't read that at all. I read that the notarial cert <period> is to be stapled to the doc.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/30/12 12:09am
Msg #436551

Lisa, it says in the newsletter, "The certificate of acknowledgment must be endorsed on or stapled to the instrument."

The instrument is the document itself, not the signature page. From page 9 of our handbook, we know this because one of the journal requirements is the we record is the "character of every instrument..."

So if the certificate is already in the document (on the instrument)... page 15 of 15 pages, for example... there's really nothing to staple because the certificate would be endorsed "on" the instrument. It wouldn't be stapled "to" it because it isn't an addition.

Although, I do see what you mean. I don't think there's any harm in stapling a document where the page exists as part of a whole...I'm just not sure it's necessary because it's not an addition to the instrument.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/30/12 12:22am
Msg #436552

What I really meant to say here was that the word to pay attention to there is "OR" --- the certificate is endorsed on the instrument OR it is stapled to it.

So, I guess there's an inference to be made there. If the certificate is endorsed ON the instrument, is is assumed that it is correctly printed or written on the document itself. Therefore, if if it is not, then and addition needs to be made, which must be stapled.

At least, that's how I interpret it. Like I said, though, I don't see the harm in stapling... I mean, we all know most of the time these companies can't get the certificate right anyway

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/30/12 12:35am
Msg #436553

<<<"The certificate of acknowledgment must be endorsed on or stapled to the instrument.">>>

Let's take the application for a vital record (i.e. birth certificate). It's one page and the acknowledgment is at the bottom - therefore, the cert of ack is "endorsed on". Let's take an AHCD or POA - many I do are multiple page docs where the ack is part of the final page with the signature line just above the ack. Again, the cert of ack is endorsed on.

<<<So if the certificate is already in the document (on the instrument)... page 15 of 15 pages, for example... there's really nothing to staple because the certificate would be endorsed "on" the instrument.>>>

The way I understand "on the instrument" is on the same page as the signature. Just because the pages are numbered....really has no bearing on the concept of "on the instrument" because there are multiple page docs that aren't numbered - can the notarial cert then be considered "separate" because the doc pages aren't numbered? So as I understand this issue....if the notarial cert is below the signature, it's "endorsed on the instrument". If the notarial cert is a separate page (whether the multi page doc is numbered or not) it is to be stapled to the instrument and that's whether the cert is included or added by the notary.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/30/12 12:38am
Msg #436554

I think that it depends on the definition of "instrument" I suppose. I take "Instrument" to mean the entire document because of what we have in our handbook where it refers the "character of the instrument" that we have to record in our journals.

Do you think it could mean something else?

Reply by LKT/CA on 9/30/12 12:53am
Msg #436557

I agree with your explanation regarding the word "instrument" and I was incorrect saying the cert should just be stapled to the signature page. But like you said, it can't hurt to staple the entire doc together - whether the cert is included or the notary adds one, since most of the time, the certs are not compliant and we routinely have to add a compliant one ;-)

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 9/30/12 12:57am
Msg #436558

Exactly... most of the time we have to staple anyway.

Reply by DaveCA/CA on 9/30/12 1:18am
Msg #436559

Thank you for the discussion and helping me

And thanks for the stamp impression Marian. I'm getting those bad boys made for me. I'm writing way too much to not use those.

Thank you all again. Have a super October.