Posted by Henry Davidson on 4/28/13 11:18am
Msg #467508

Notary Union

Why isn't there a notary union? Nationwide? By State? Any ideas why not or how to?

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/28/13 11:42am
Msg #467511

Such an odd question from a SS...why should there be one? n/m

Reply by Henry Davidson on 4/28/13 12:16pm
Msg #467517

Re: Such an odd question from a SS...why should there be one?

Its only odd if your attitude is the ss is the enemy....not a partner. Thankfully most look at the ss as a partner and client, but we love you too!

Reply by Henry Davidson on 4/28/13 12:22pm
Msg #467519

Why should there be one?

Is it needed? Maybe not. I can think of a few things we could push for, but we do not have to push....so would a national and 50 state affiliated organiztion..union or otherwise, be worthwhile?

If so, what would the Agenda be for a national union? Agendas and executive boards by state?

Who would you vote to be the Chairperson and Executive Board nationally?

Reply by jba/fl on 4/28/13 4:09pm
Msg #467557

Not you. n/m

Reply by 101livescan on 4/28/13 12:27pm
Msg #467520

Re: Such an odd question from a SS...why should there be one?

Henry, I like that "partnership" concept. However, so many signing services' business model is not a partnership at all.

I think that if I ran a Signing Service, I would like to think of the notary community as my partner, and would definitely have a business model that served all parties equitably.

In the several years, our business has become populated with services I will call "hoarders" with low pay, slow pay, and NO PAY methodologies. This is not much of a partnership in my view. When I go to SC and sort our database by stars, the 1,2, and 3 rated companies are more and more out numbering the 4 and 5 star companies.

What is your goal regarding forming a union?

Reply by Henry Davidson on 4/28/13 12:35pm
Msg #467522

Goals

The mission/goal is to provide the signing agent community the tools needed or lacking to be successful. I am sure there are lots of things that can fall under lacks or needs in our industry, insurance just one...thanks for the link to the article below....i think it makes a great case for this to happen.

Reply by Roger_OH on 4/28/13 1:47pm
Msg #467531

Re: Goals

If your goal is to be specifically for signing agents, then there is already a de facto national SA organization right here on NotRot. Thousands of members, a comprehensive knowledge base representing most every state, availability of products such as E&O insurance, etc.

So I'm not understanding what you feel the pressing issues are about SAs? Just about everything under the SA sun has been addressed here at one time or another, so present your issues and perhaps the Forum can provide you some guidance.

Reply by Roger_OH on 4/28/13 11:57am
Msg #467513

This has been discussed a number of times; do a search.

In sum, unions are comprised of EMPLOYEES - we are independent contractors, and notaries are commissioned and regulated by their respective state laws.

Not sure what pressing notary issues you feel a "union" is needed for. If, as I'm surmising, it's for touting some kind of common fee structure, that will never happen, and collusion to fix prices is actually illegal. Additionally, the wide range of regional variables across the country simply reinforce that YOU are the only one that decides what fees you will charge to meet the profitability goals of your business plan.

Now, if you wish to effect positive change in your state notary laws that you feel will better enable those notaries to better defend the public trust, then the place to start is with your Secretary of State's office and state legislators.

Do have a viable plan drafted that will show them how it will make things better for your citizrens statewide, and any costs involved in doing so. Don't waste their time trying to get some legislation to regulate signing services or penalize then for not paying; those issues are between you the the hiring company, and isn't a statewide concern for the masses.

If you don't have a statewide notary organization, then start one. See an example of ours at www.ohionotaries.org

The oldest and best-run of the state associations is the Pennsylvania Association of Notaries at www.notary.org

You can make a positive impact, but don't depend on others to get the ball rolling - take the bull by the horns and make it happen.

Reply by anotaryinva on 4/28/13 12:30pm
Msg #467521

Never thought about the benefits of a union. When someone posted they were employees, I thought about the plumbers union, the electrical workers union, and wondered if they were all employees...when googling I came across this. Pretty interesting,
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/24/business/freelancers-union-tackles-concerns-of-independent-workers.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 4/28/13 12:45pm
Msg #467526

There should be one...

One which works with state legislatures to improve notary laws in the states. There is an International Union of Notaries, but it has no presence in the U.S.

Reply by desktopfull on 4/28/13 1:49pm
Msg #467532

We don't have enough useless expenses that we have to pay

for now to do this job? You now want us to pay Union Dues? What entitle another group of Union leader's to sit back and collect thousands off of those of us that work our rear-ends off to make a meager profit in this business, while they claim they are assisting us to improve our working conditions? Give me a break!

The last group that claimed they were looking out for our interests proceeded to gut our fees with their "recommended fee schedule," increased our costs with their marketing of "background checks" and "certification" with the insistance of it all having to be purchased through their organization for it to be valid.

Please take your Union suggestion and put it where the sun doesn't shine!

Reply by Henry Davidson on 4/28/13 2:10pm
Msg #467536

Re: We don't have enough useless expenses that we have to pay

Who said anything about dues? But thanks for your positive outlook.....we are looking for "how to" suggestions and commentary. Please keep the "we cant" and disgruntled attitude at home. ....or you can put that where the sun doesn't shine.


Maybe one action item should be to eliminate or reduce all of the "useless fees"currently needed to do the job? See how this works now...

Reply by desktopfull on 4/28/13 2:28pm
Msg #467539

Re: We don't have enough useless expenses that we have to pay

So like most things in this country today, if you don't like the idea put forth then just shut up and get out of the way. So only your suggestions and input and those like minded are allowed to participate in the discussion. Sounds like most Union type of people that I have run across.

Reply by Yoli/CA on 4/28/13 2:30pm
Msg #467540

Henry:

I like to think I come from a strong Union background. My dad was a member of the Carpenters' Union until his death in 1991. In 1978, I went to work for a labor organization and joined another labor organization - retired from there 2011 (with a 6 year hiatus while I tried my wings at something else - wrong decision). During that 27-year time frame, I was also the Union shop steward of my unit. I enjoyed, then, the great pay and employer-paid benefits. To this day, I am still reaping those rewards by collecting a couple of pensions. So, I think I can speak from experience.

My opinion ... and, given my age, this may be a myopic viewpoint ... I can't envision the true concept of unionism working for independent contractors.

JMHO

Reply by Susan Fischer on 4/28/13 4:04pm
Msg #467555

Great examples, Yoli. Perhaps the nomenclature is a

barrier here. Unions evolved as workers' fundamental rights issues demanded fairness and safety. Some here are idealogically opposed to the concept of Unions; others believe the needs for a seat at the table no longer exist; and still others can envision a model being developed to bring independent contractors in our industry to the table of remote closings.

Whenever this subject pops up, the usual responses discuss "price fixing." So I look at say, the taxi prices in town: all within a very small range. Same with the Trades: plumbers, electricians, etc. Many of these small businesses are frequently independent contractors, yet all have their narrow pricing ranges. Point being, I just can't see how agreeing on a bottom-in-a-range- can be "price fixing" in the legal and intended sense. Our "profits" are so meager, really, no matter what the price.

We are unique and diverse in so many ways, too: location, saturation, business accumen, personal circumstances, etc, not to mention the financial world. And while "sweat equity" is generally not recompensible, we must spend it in order to learn and develop our craft, any craft, really. Unions have a system for that: training/certifications for newbies; Journerymen for the competent; and Masters for the talented and ambitious. That model is not necessarily apropos to our biz, but can spark the imagination.

Thinking about ways to 'standardize' fair compensation for us, the stalwart Signing Agents, is a good thing.

JMHO

Reply by anotaryinva on 4/28/13 2:17pm
Msg #467537

Re: We don't have enough useless expenses that we have to pay

This 'union' is free. I've just started looking at their website but it seems like they have a lot of resources/tips for those that are independent. It is based n NY so a lot of what is available is geared toward that state but I suspect they will be expanding.
http://www.freelancersunion.org/

Reply by desktopfull on 4/28/13 2:31pm
Msg #467541

Re: We don't have enough useless expenses that we have to pay

Nothing is "free" in this life, might appear to start out that way but usually costs greatly in the end.

Reply by John Tennant on 4/28/13 2:27pm
Msg #467538

Desktopfull I am with you on this one.

I have never known a union that did not get rich off of their members. Much richer than the members.

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/28/13 2:55pm
Msg #467544

Sounds like you are interested in starting one.

You should probably read this first. Msg# 129805

Reply by BrendaTx on 4/28/13 2:56pm
Msg #467545

Message linked (sorry jba)

Msg #129805

Reply by FlaNotary2 on 4/28/13 4:01pm
Msg #467554

But NR is not a union

When I say a union, I mean an organization that advocates for notaries with state notary administrators and legislatures. It should be run by volunteers.

Reply by SharonMN on 4/29/13 10:51am
Msg #467635

Re: But NR is not a union

That's not a union (unions are collective bargaining organizations that negotiate with employers on behalf of employees.) That's a professional organization. There are several. If you think they should be doing more than they are, join them and effect change.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 4/28/13 3:10pm
Msg #467548

I'm amazed that no one finds it odd that the Owner

of a Signing Service is here talking about unionizing notaries. Why would HE want to do this? Is it just me or isn't this just a little odd to others?

And no, Henry, I don't mean you.

Reply by Roger_OH on 4/28/13 4:05pm
Msg #467556

Bottom line why this idea is unrealistic...

Most of us have a carefully cultivated stable of hundreds of TC/SS that we deal with regularly, and have a decent relationship with. We don't need a additional party between us.

NotRot is already such an excellent resource for us; nationwide communication, supplies, Signing Central, etc.

I see this "union" doing nothing for us that isn't already available, mostly right here on NotRot. If I need health insurance, I can get it thru a local agent or any number of professional groups I'm already in. Shoot, if I wanted someone to galvanize us for a national common cause, I'd nominate Harry to carry it, with the the full weight of established NotRot membership behind him.

While there may be some application in certain industries, in this one no "union" is going to be able to pressure any TC/SS to do anything on your behalf, especially when many of the latter are here today and gone tomorrow. Simply, the company will just move on to the next notary on the list, and not bother with you.

Reply by jba/fl on 4/28/13 4:30pm
Msg #467560

Henry hasn't been here in a while - I guess he just wants

to get his name out there again for his own jollies. You know - bad publicity is better than none.

Reply by KODI/CA on 4/28/13 6:57pm
Msg #467570

Just read his website. Looking for suckers.

Become one of his sales reps. Commissions for life without doing any closings. YEAH, RIGHT.

Reply by BobbiCT on 4/29/13 8:31am
Msg #467616

Public Officials (notaries) cannot form unions ...

What "signing agents" perform is done as an "independent contractor" or vendor to a company based on a per-job contract between the hiring party and the party providing the service. We are currently not employees; although if enough work is performed for only one or two companies over the course of a year and no other company, the IRS could on audit reclassify a signing agent as an employee.

Known in some circles as the "90-day wonder"; i.e., you were a temporary worker for less than 90 days to avoid running the IRS gamut that longer than that you were "permanent" and the hiring entity owed all the "employer" government payroll taxes for you.