Posted by GOLDGIRL/CA on 8/23/13 12:48am
Msg #481622

Adventures in CA notaryland

Today, I "learned" something new (I think):

I used the services of two different notaries today, each of whom was presented a (different) multipage document that required initials on each page. They both refused to notarize my signature until I initialed all the preceding pages, contending that "missing initials" violated the CA Government Code's Incomplete Document section:

<<A notary public may not notarize a document this is incomplete. If presented with a document for notarization, which the notary public knows from experience to be incomplete or is without doubt on its face incomplete, the notary public must refuse to notarize the document.>>

The second thing I "learned" (I think):

I presented several documents to a mail store notary, each requiring both a jurat and an acknowledgment. She did just the jurat, saying that CA law prohibited her from doing both (unless I signed twice). The document had only one signature line. "One signature, one certificate" was her motto - or at least her interpretation of some CA law.

So, now, I am beyond confused and will leave it to greater minds than mine to comment. Notary myth? I do know one thing: not one of the jurats was CA compliant, but she didn't blink an eye. Amazingly enough, she did do an oath (sorta).

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/23/13 2:43am
Msg #481626

LOL!! IMNSHO, you're not the one confused! Sheesh!! n/m

Reply by 101livescan on 8/23/13 8:18am
Msg #481632

I wonder what notary school she went to? Well, if your document was a DOT and it had initials at the bottom of each page, and you did not initial, they would kick it back, but it's the signature page she is notarizing, not the initials, I believe.

No formal oath? Shame on her? I posted my bond and took the oath at the County Recorders office this week, raised my right hand, read the script and IT WAS AN OFFICIAL OATH!

I've seen documents from title that had both jurat and acknowledgment at the end of the document, which one am I to use? I always wonder why they have both, and do you go to notary jail if you don't choose the right one, or do both? Still out here free as a bird, so who knows?

I'm always amused at having other notaries notarize my documents and how they handle things, especially after I say I can't notarize my own documents and have been doing this for over 40 years this September 2!

Reply by Teresa/FL on 8/23/13 9:06am
Msg #481635

If both an acknowledgement and jurat are attached,

I complete both certificates and make sure that they conform to my state's requirements. I am not going to guess which one they need. If they are both there, they need both of them completed.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/23/13 12:41pm
Msg #481656

"No formal oath? Shame on her? "

To be fair, there is no prescribed formal oath required in CA. It says in our handbooks that there is no prescribed wording and even the raising of the hand is not required.

The oath of office is not that same as an oath for a jurat.

Reply by Notarysigner on 8/23/13 10:23am
Msg #481640

Well trying to keep it as simple as possible (multipage document that required initials on each page ).

The Ack is supposed to be "attached" to the multipage Doc. When most of us do "Loan Docs" we send the Deed (for example) back to TC UNATTACHED. not good although it usually will say something like "page 14 of 14"..

When I do divorce settlement agreements, they are usually 18 pages and sometimes must be initialed. I have a heavy duty stapler and will use it when I "attach" my ACK.

As far as >>> each requiring both a jurat and an acknowledgment. <<<<<

There are four counties in Calif where the county Clerk will not accept an Affidavit without a Jurat. So it looks like the author of the Docs is trying to cover all bases because they don't remember which counties they are.

Reply by Stoli on 8/23/13 1:15pm
Msg #481659

If I understood you correctly, there are four questions:


Is a document incomplete if the individual pages are not initialed?
Is it acceptable to notarize a non-California compliant jurat?
If a document contains a jurat and an acknowledgment, are two signatures required?
And, is it acceptable to complete both the jurat and the acknowledgment on the same document?

If the document is recordable, it will be interesting to see if the county recorder rejects the filing for the non-compliance issues with the jurat. I notice no one offered their professional opinion.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/23/13 8:26pm
Msg #481697

Re: If I understood you correctly, there are four questions:

Here's my take on these questions (most of which I believe are more matters of common sense than any legal issue):

<<Is a document incomplete if the individual pages are not initialed?>>

I think that's apples and oranges. IMO, the completeness of the document only refers to the contents. Without initials, it may not be fully executed, but it could still be "complete".

<<Is it acceptable to notarize a non-California compliant jurat?>>

The letter of the law says that you can do that ONLY if the provided certificate is verbiage "REQUIRED" by the place where it's going to be recorded and ONLY if it doesn't require you to include something that is prohibited by CA law. I'm going from memory here, but I believe that paragraph excludes any reference to capacity of signer, but I also would interpret that to include statements in the certificate about personally knowing the signer, which is no longer allowed in CA as a form of satisfactory evidence. How often do we know what another state recommends, let along "requires"? These days, I always default to using CA-compliant certs only.

<<If a document contains a jurat and an acknowledgment, are two signatures required?>>

That would be the tail wagging the dog, imo. The person isn't signing the document for our benefit, they're signing for the purpose of the content of the document itself. The number and placement of signatures is up to the document creator. You're just notarizing the signature two different ways. I still consider it one signature for one signer on a doc, and two signatures for two signers on a doc (for fee purposes, etc.) - even though it's twice the work.

<<And, is it acceptable to complete both the jurat and the acknowledgment on the same document?>>

I've never seen anything that even refers to having to do one or the other under California notary law. And since they each serve a somewhat different purpose, I don't see why it isn't possible for someone to want both purposes covered. For example, they may want a statement about the person signing in their authorized capacity and they may want an oath administered as to the truthfulness of the contents of the document.

I don't remember what non-compliance issues were referred to, so no comment unless I go back and re-read that.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 8/24/13 12:42am
Msg #481708

Thanks, Janet!

I totally agree with you that the completeness of the document refers to the contents. Where both notaries got the idea that without my initials the doc was incomplete and therefore could not be notarized borders on insanity to me... as well as an improper refusal to notarize.

I think you're were thinking of an ack when you wrote that part about a jurat. Yes, she could have used Texas verbiage for an ack but all jurats taken in CA must be in CA form. I hope none of the jurats are recordable cos I think the county recorder would kick them back for noncompliance. But I agree with you if you're referring to an ack.

And I think you're exactly right about the two notarial acts on one page. They wanted me to swear to the truthfulness of the contents as well as to have me sign in my authorized capacity, with only one signature. But the mail store notary wouldn't go for it. And chose the jurat (without asking me what I wanted). So far, she's hit the trifecta of notary stupidity: noncompliant jurats, refusing to notarize without my initialing, and refusing to notarize an ack saying I get one notarization per signature and not allowing me to choose between a jurat and ack, instead just choosing on her own.

But stay tuned, the document custodian called me today and told me they faxed her back the ack that she refused to complete and told her to notarize it and fax it back. This I gotta see. If she actually does it, I am definitely reporting her to the SOS. As for the document custodian, I asked him what about notarization don't you get? It's against CA law for a notary to send a certificate without it being attached to the document, and it's against CA law for a notary to complete a certificate without personal appearance by the signer. He said he just wanted it notarized! Geez.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/24/13 2:25am
Msg #481710

Re: Thanks, Janet!

Oops! You're right, of course: I WAS thinking about an Ack - and we DO need to always use the required CA verbiage on every jurat completed in this state. Thanks for setting the record straight!! However, I do disagree with her being able to properly use the Texas verbiage. I had this point - from 1189 of the CA Civil Code - stuck in my head because I've seen it ignored so many times:

<<(c) On documents to be *filed* in another state or jurisdiction of the United States, a California
notary public may complete any acknowledgment form as may be *REQUIRED* in that other state or jurisdiction on a document, provided the form does not require notary to determine or certify that the signer holds a particular representative capacity or to make other determinations and certifications not allowed by California law.>>

[** and caps added by me for emphasis] So the way I interpret this is that unless we're certain what a state requires (if anything) for their ack certs, we should use our own. I suspect that most notaries do better on the 2nd half of that statement than on the first part.

Anyway, sounds like your saga continues... Should be interesting - but much less so when it's your own document! Please let us know what happens. I hope you get it worked out without a lot of inconvenience.

Reply by Stephanie Santiago on 8/23/13 1:55pm
Msg #481664

Not of a greater mind, but the way she/he conducted

themself as a Notary Public is so outside of the box.
Box=Notary Law.
I'm thinking it is a new Notary Public and is being overly cautious; in this case outside of the box.

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/23/13 3:54pm
Msg #481677

Whenever I need something notarized, if the notarial cert is non-compliant, I replace it with a compliant one I fully type - it only has a line for the notary to print his/her name and a line for their signature. This way I don't have to depend on that notary to "get it right"......*I* got it right and that works for me. I go to the AAA (auto club) office - I have a Premier membership so I get 10 notarizations free per day.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/23/13 4:33pm
Msg #481678

I do the same as Lisa. AAA Premier membership is worth every

single penny...ESPECIALLY for mobile notaries. The premier membership gets you a tow of up to 200 miles anywhere you want, among other things, including free notarizations.