Posted by Dennis D Broadbooks on 8/27/13 2:17pm
Msg #482173

Breastfeeding...

OK, what's the modern take on a borrower breastfeeding an 18 month old while sitting at the signing table? I say "modern" due to the fact I guess I'm "old school" & feel it was completely unwarranted in a recent signing I performed. Yes, the borrower was very discreet & nothing showed...that I was aware of...I spent most of my time staring at the doc package or the husband. We were near the end of the signing & her daughter was displaying signs of getting cranky. Distracting? From a guy's perspective it was the elephant in the room. Thoughts?

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/27/13 2:26pm
Msg #482178

I think we need to chalk it up as just one more potentially awkward thing we, as mobile notaries, need to deal with - especially in a person's own home. The mom is thinking solely of her cranky daughter, it's something that she's been doing many times a day ever since the child was born, so she probably doesn't give it much thought anymore. It feels perfectly natural to her - and it is, although it may not feel that way to the outsider!

I think you did just about the only thing you can do in a situation like that.

Reply by LynnNC on 8/27/13 4:37pm
Msg #482225

Even if the mother breastfeeds her baby, there are times when it is better to pump and fill a bottle.

Reply by Trans-American Court Services on 8/27/13 5:39pm
Msg #482253

I am a midwife besides being a notary. I know this must have been uncomfortable and awkward to you but to us, it is just as if she had been bottle feeding her baby. When nature calls baby need to get feed and this is some thing that cannot be postponed. Just be happy that we were not in certain parts of Africa where to be hospitable the householder offers a sip of the lactating wifes' breast and it's a dishonor if you do not oblige.

Reply by LynnNC on 8/27/13 7:38pm
Msg #482277

It was no BABY, but a walking, and, likely, talking child n/m

Reply by Luckydog on 8/27/13 2:26pm
Msg #482180

Apparently you have no children or your wife never breast fed. You are at their home, it is a natural thing to do from both her and the baby, I do not see an issue with it done tastefully in front of you. Do you feel she was obligated to ask your permission? That would be even more awkward for you. I have done many closings with mom breastfeeding, and never gave it a second thought. Maybe because I am female, males have a different perspective. Nothing modern about it, mom's have been doing it since the beginning of time, and even more open in many cultures than in the USA.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 8/27/13 2:37pm
Msg #482190

Assumptions...

...always come back to bite. My wife & I have four children...ALL of whom were breast fed. My wife & I discussed this scenario after I returned from the signing & she would have never considered breastfeeding in front of a total stranger not 3 feet away. I've also been in this business for over 12 years & it's the first time I've had this situation come up.

Reply by HisHughness on 8/27/13 2:57pm
Msg #482200

***Apparently you have no children or your wife never breast fed. You are at their home, it is a natural thing to do from both her and the baby, I do not see an issue with it done tastefully in front of you.***

I do have children, and my wife breastfed, as did my daughter.

The borrowers are indeed in their home. It is also a natural function for both the mother and the baby to urinate. I don't have a problem with the baby peeing in front of me. I am hard-pressed to conjure up any way in which the mother could do so "tastefully."

Breastfeeding in a crowd, as in church, where the attention is not focused on the mother, may be acceptable. It is not acceptable, in the opinion of this not-so-traditional-nor-hidebound OldePharte, in any setting in which a stranger is required to focus his attention on the mother while a breast is in play. It is uncomfortable, and it is awkward.

And, as you so correctly noted, it is the borrowers' home. Do they not have a responsibility to make some minimal effort to assure that guests are not made to feel ill at ease?

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 8/27/13 3:14pm
Msg #482206

Hey HisHughness - good points! Like I said: you can look at

the baby & make cooing noises - even pick up the bottle if it falls. I don't see that happening w/ a breast.

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 8/27/13 2:29pm
Msg #482183

I'm a woman & the same thing happened to me during a signing

also. I, too felt it was totally unwarranted, elephant in the room, etc. It is afterall, a part of the body - discreet or not. To anyone who feels it's no big deal, Dennis you should then be able to tickle the baby under the chin while making cooing sounds just like a bottle-fed infant, IMO. Afterall, it's no big deal, right??

I personally do not appreciate my time being used to feed the kids, walk the dog...blah, blah blah. We're at your house on business - NOT for you to fit us in between your chores! Duh - we have OTHER appts & I don't factor diaper changing, your kids' homework or canning fruit into my schedule (which is also SOMEONE ELSE's schedule). SMH!

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/27/13 2:35pm
Msg #482188

Re: I'm a woman & the same thing happened to me during a signing

The last time that happened to me, the tiny infant had begun to fuss and carry on. Frankly, it was much less disruptive once the mom began breastfeeding. The child quieted down immediately and mom hardly missed a beat with the signing. About the only concession I had to make was occasionally holding the paper for her while she signed, since her other arm was holding a baby.

Reply by Luckydog on 8/27/13 2:41pm
Msg #482193

Re: I'm a woman & the same thing happened to me during a signing

Hrdwrker...We are a mobile closer and do things to convenience the buyer not ourselves. I hardly think a mom breast feeding her child is taking away from her ability to sign her papers. I would much rather her sit and cover herself, nurse her baby and stop him or her from crying and continue to sign, than take 20 minutes to sit in her bedroom as not to offend me while she nurses. Babies are not on your schedule, you have to be flexible at people's homes.
I have never been at a closing while someone walks the dog, feeds her walking age children, changes a diaper...I think you are over exaggerating a bit and think a bit to highly of yourself. We are there to accommodate the client, otherwise they can drive to a title agency. You are an adult, so a nursing boob offends you? It's natural, who cares, do not look.
On the other hand, I have been to a closing where the man answered his door in his boxer shorts, his fly gaping open and the wife and mother in law said nothing. Who am I to interfere in his house? I did the closing, never looked down again, and to each his own. Just have to go with the flow in our profession. I am sure the pizza delivery guy has his stories to..

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 8/27/13 3:02pm
Msg #482202

I HAVE had diapers changed, kids' homework done etc. - no

exaggeration needed here - people do the darndest things! I DO think highly of myself & would NEVER conduct a closing w/ someone in their underwear - that's just stupid on the part of both parties!!! When I babysat, I got offended at the 16 yr old who walked around the house in his briefs once he got home from school (I was babysitting his 2 & 3 yr old nephews).

Again Dennis makes a good point - his wife wouldn't dream of breastfeeding ALONE w/ a total male stranger, but would think nothing of pulling out a bottle in front of that same stranger!?!?People enjoy pushing the envelope - period.

The woman who was breastfeeding? It DID impede her ability to sign while feeding - She had touble juggling the baby & the pen - I guess she couldn't multi-task.

And oh yeah - the next appt usually doesn't give a rat's behind about your being delayed, if it negatively impacts their schedule. DUH - their schedule IS my schedule. I allow a reasonable amt of time to do the signing AND travel to the next APPOINTMENT. I can't just leisurely show up - whenever.

But I stand behind Dennis' posts & mine and... feed the kids BEFORE or AFTER - fork, spoon, or breast! That goes for homework & whatever else - JMO

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 8/27/13 2:41pm
Msg #482194

That's Another Part of This Particular Signing...

...I didn't mention. Appointment is scheduled for 6:30PM & I arrive on time. All members of the household are sitting at the dinner table eating & we don't start until 6:45PM. Did I also mention they were "readers" & the signing wasn't completed until 8:00PM?

Reply by Luckydog on 8/27/13 2:43pm
Msg #482195

Re: That's Another Part of This Particular Signing...

That is more of a problem then mom breastfeeding. If everyone feeding, yes, I would be pissed off.

Reply by Lee/AR on 8/27/13 2:46pm
Msg #482196

Sitting eating? Wrong. The other--not so much. n/m

Reply by jba/fl on 8/27/13 2:47pm
Msg #482197

Re: That's Another Part of This Particular Signing...

no, you didn't say they were readers, etc., and that is not the issue at all.

Dennis, I suspect that you and I are off a different generation than some of those answering. It is normal, natural behavior, but I am with your wife on this one: I would not in front of anyone else, nor when I was distracted. The younger generation tends to be more of 'let it all hang out' whereas we were taught more modesty was a good thing, and if you are going to breast feed, take it to another room. Different mores.

mo·res
ˈmôrˌāz
noun
plural noun: mores

1. the essential or characteristic customs and conventions of a community.
"an offense against social mores"
synonyms: customs, conventions, ways, way of life, traditions, practices, habits; More

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 8/27/13 2:49pm
Msg #482198

"Take it to Another Room"...

Yes.

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 8/27/13 3:02pm
Msg #482203

Dennis - I'm feelin ya! n/m

Reply by VT_Syrup on 8/27/13 2:36pm
Msg #482189

Not uncommon in my neck of the woods, whether at home or in public.

Reply by Linda_H/FL on 8/27/13 2:55pm
Msg #482199

18 months old??!!

First off - I don't agree with doing it in public - never have, which is why I didn't breastfeed, but if it's done discreetly enough I can get by it (my daughter did it here and all covered we were okay).

I can understand the "necessity" of it for an infant. But 18 months old? Are you kidding me? No. Sorry. Whole other discussion.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 8/27/13 3:01pm
Msg #482201

I Wondered When Someone Would Mention...

...the age aspect. The daughter was definitely old enough to be taken care of by the four older children who were downstairs playing/watching TV. The mom took her downstairs once, but she wandered back upstairs 10 minutes later without the mom or dad telling her to go back down.

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 8/27/13 3:10pm
Msg #482204

How 'bout 4 or 5? I haven't personally seen that, but one of

my fellow local NSA's did. AND again - bottle alone in front of stranger, but no breast??? Why not?? Does it become LESS natural, when you're alone??? The child still has to eat! Same thing w/ the underwear...I'm doing a closing 7 or 8 pm at night w/ a lone stranger & he wants to walk around half naked??? Thank goodness I still have the common sense my parents raised me with - SMH!

Reply by CJ on 8/27/13 3:14pm
Msg #482207

I can understand an infant, but.

An 18 month old is just being indulged - give it a cookie and nurse it later. And if they were all having dinner and readers, obviously the whole world revolves around them anyway. It's a wonder the next child up didn't want to nurse too.

I can't stand when people have their dumb dogs on their laps and pretend that the dog is helping signing.

Once my borrowers let their naked two-year old crawl on the table. They didn't see a problem. Then the steaks came off the grill and they were enjoying while they signed, saying how yummy they turned out. Didn't even think to offer me anything. The whole world revolves around them.

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 8/27/13 3:19pm
Msg #482209

This is slightly different, but what about when they're

waiting for you - you're all on time & everything. Then they show you to the table which has puddles of juice soda, 1/2 lb of crumbs from their meal & say: "just put everything on the table", while smiling sweetly! I've had to ask them to wipe the table so we don't mess up their loan papers!

Reply by Luckydog on 8/27/13 3:18pm
Msg #482208

Re: 18 months old??!!

Guess I am different. I bet if she said, excuse me for 30 minutes, I have to nurse, you would have been more upset waiting for her, than covering herself and letting her nurse at the table and moving forward. She felt comfortable around you. I have no issues with mom's nursing their children anywhere, private or public, provided they do it discreetly. They do not need my permission to do so, or even think twice about it. 18 months is not old to nurse a child by any means. Many cultures nurse until 4 or 5 years of age. That is a choice the mother's make, not society. My personal opinion is that when a child speaks, eats table food, the nursing needs to come to an end as serves no nutrition at that point, just a comforting mechanism for both. It is an individual choice. I nursed my son, and in public, I went to a quiet, out of the way place, a nursing lounge or at the least away from mainstream traffic. I never nursed openly in the middle of a restaurant, or in the grocery store, but found a semi or private place, just for my comfort, not for anyone else. Her home is just that in this case. The whole issue I believe with the post is the people still eating 15 minutes more when they knew they had an appointment, and then decided to take their sweet time at the closing reading everything and not listening to what you have to say explaining the docs, then to top it off, breastfeeding. When you start adding up all the "aggravations", it can really try our patience, and some people sense this and just do things to make it worse. Human nature. Thank God this is not the norm, but we have to deal with things we are uncomfortable with.

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 8/27/13 3:29pm
Msg #482214

Another Assumption...

...which bites. She breast fed the 18 month old twice for perhaps TWO minutes each time. The child simply wanted attention & the mother gave it to her. I wouldn't have minded nearly as much if she'd said she had a situation to attend to & was gone for 5 minutes. By the way, I've never said the mom had to have my permission...I've also never said any of this upset me to the point I couldn't sleep at night. It's just a simple discussion on what should be the "norm". I feel the mom didn't handle it in a proper way.

Reply by LynnNC on 8/27/13 4:42pm
Msg #482227

An 18-month-old can drink pumped milk out of a sippee cup!

The mother indulged the child to the discomfort of a male handling a business transaction.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/27/13 4:45pm
Msg #482228

Re: Another Assumption...

Well, I *sort of* take back my earlier post on this above. I missed the part about the child being 18 mos. old. Overall, it does look like this is just a person who doesn't have much consideration for others. A toddler could wait a few minutes, or as others have said, the signing could be arranged around feeding time, since the child should be on a schedule by then - or at least one would think... So yeah, she was being thoughtless.

But having said all that, while it doesn't make it right, it's still one of those many things we just need to deal with when it comes up. HOW we deal with it depends on the situation and the individual. We have to ask ourselves where we draw the line and is it worth it to risk creating an incident by saying something (or walking) vs. sucking it up (NO pun intended, sorry ) and getting over our sensibilities. I think this is probably a matter of degree for most of us, with no simple black and white answers.

Reply by Julie/MI on 8/27/13 5:37pm
Msg #482251

Been nursing pretty much since 1995 ....

The ignorance of breastfeeding is evident. I was one of "those" until I walked the walk.

#1 Breastfeeding cannot be "scheduled", sometimes the sessions last 2 hours sometimes 2 mins.

#2 There are some great breastfeeding tops out there and when I do nurse in public, no one has a clue what I'm doing

#3 my 19month old is very aggressive and just goes for it. We've been looking at homes with real estate agents and sometimes to shut her up and calm her down I just nurse while standing, walking into basements etc. I DO warn the agent that they may want to step in front of me. Going to the car and nursing isn't going to work with a toddler, they are not nursing for nutrition at this point, but ususally to soothe, go to sleep.

#4 Very silly to presume that all babies will drink pumped milk from a bottle. Silly to think all women pump or can pump.

I have a feeling this family just does it if this woman already has 4 other children and you're on her turf.

It's no more vulgar than a dog sniffing private parts or humping my leg. I think that's much more rude than a nursing 18 month old.

NOW, that said, if I was closing a my home, and the toddler wanted to nurse, I would probably ask you to go into another room while we read (but I wouldn't be a reader in the first place )

And Linda, I hope you're sitting down, but I nursed my children until they were about 4.5.

Baby #4 is 19 months and shows no sign of quitting

Finally, a nursing boob isn't very pretty

Reply by MW/VA on 8/27/13 3:24pm
Msg #482212

IMO, I do understand that this is the norm in today's world.

Someone posted the other week about having to deal with the same situation, and it wasn't done discreetly.
My concern here is that the borrower's haven't planned or set aside time for the appt. I understand mother's needing to multi-task, but if it interferes with the childs feeding time, then IMO the appt. time should be changed. I'm not anti-children, either, but have had many situations where parents choose an appt. time when the kids are down for a nap or down for the night.
When we find ourselves in an awkward situation, we have to handle it as professionals, of course.
BTW, I had a RE Agent that acted more like a spoiled child last week than any children or pets I've encountered. I stayed focused on the task at hand. I'm there for a short time, get the docs signed, and then I'm out of there! ;-) LOL

Reply by Jack/AL on 8/27/13 4:15pm
Msg #482219

Ya'll mst be having a sloooooow day! n/m

Reply by Jack/AL on 8/27/13 4:16pm
Msg #482220

Re: Ya'll must be having a sloooooow day! n/m

Reply by Bear900/CA on 8/27/13 4:49pm
Msg #482230

You know there's joksters here trying to contain themselves! n/m

Reply by Susan Fischer on 8/27/13 5:19pm
Msg #482241

Didn't we just go through this here? Geez - cry like

babies when you don't get work or are low-balled, and carp when parents parent in their own homes.

Not eaten by fleas, bitten by dogs, screamed at by borrower - no, just feeding the baby. Very discreet. Nothing showed, but lets have a big brouhaha because you had to work and get paid.

Sorry for the rant, but it just boggles the mind.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 8/27/13 6:01pm
Msg #482261

Yes, we did just tackle this same subject, Susan

See Msg #480370 of Aug 13. Even tho you're kinda comparing apples to oranges, so to speak, comparing breast-feeing mothers at a signing to having no work, not to mention saying a breast-feeding mother is far better than being attacked by the borrower's dog or by the borrower himself, still, I think I get your point, and I agree. To anyone shocked, dismayed, offended, put out, concerned, curious, embarrassed, etc. about a breast-feeding mother at home or anywhere else, my position is "Get over it."

If the mother has no problem "exposing" that particular body part in use by the baby, why should anyone else care? I realize, tho, that plenty do cos this has always been a hot-button topic.

BTW: I've had plenty of signings where boobs were on prominent display, either big floppy ones protruding out of everywhere, or ones packed into tight, low-cut tank tops with or without a bra.... their owners leaving all modesty in the dust and nothing to the imagination.. So, just cos a baby is attached to one... what's the big deal? I don't see much difference.

Reply by Amigoaz on 8/28/13 10:44am
Msg #482346

Re: Yes, we did just tackle this same subject, Susan

Thanks for making me laugh out loud Goldgirl!

Reply by BrendaTx on 8/27/13 5:46pm
Msg #482257

I don't think that mothers think about the awkwardness until they are a lot older and remember it...however, in a notary sitcom, the notary might pull up his shirt, slip his arm out of his sleeve, and bare one side of his chest........smile, shrug, and say, "When in Rome....." and keep notarizing.

Reply by desktopfull on 8/27/13 7:09pm
Msg #482272

Bet the borrower's would be on the phone before you got out

of the door complaining about the rude notary. LOL! ;>)

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 8/28/13 10:40am
Msg #482344

Brenda... n/m

Reply by Dennis D Broadbooks on 8/28/13 10:41am
Msg #482345

Brenda...

...of all the things running through my mind at the time, that was one thought I never had. ;-)

Reply by LKT/CA on 8/27/13 9:25pm
Msg #482292

I agree with HrdwrkrVa & Dennis

Notary is there on business....the parents cannot block off 2 hours of their time to accommodate business? Give grandma take the kid to the mall and fill them with ice cream so business can be taken care of. Good grief!! All of this, "it's their home" and "breast feeding is so natural" and "some cultures, yada, yada, yada". I am so sick to death of peoples selfishness and self-centeredness.

Borrowers need to FIGURE IT OUT for 2 hours so business can be taken care of - DAGNABBIT!!! LOL!!

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 8/27/13 9:34pm
Msg #482297

Usually it's just ONE hr - which make it more ridiculous! n/m

Reply by Pam/NM on 8/28/13 4:14pm
Msg #482391

I'm so surprised that this is even an issue. Then again. I was one of those women who did everything but fry chicken while I was nursing. I was discreet and matter of fact. It was her house, you were there for her convenience and honestly, get over it. Have you seen the commercial (diapers, I think) when with baby # 1 mom is hiding in a corner under multi-layers at a restaurant nursing. Fast fwd to baby # 2 and she firmly tells the waiter, "My eyes are up HERE," while the (now) older kid glares him down. I love it!

Reply by HrdwrkrVA on 8/29/13 10:56am
Msg #482473

Does anyone breast feed ALONE in front of male strangers? I

asked this before, but no one responded - I guess it ain't natural when you're alone? I'm sure no one would consider this in a house full of male strangers - alone - why not?