Posted by HSH/WA on 8/20/13 5:05pm
Msg #481269

Title company says some of the signatures don't

match. These BOs signed all the docs, no one else. Do signatures vary? Yes they do. So I'm to go back and get them resigned - on my dime! I'm afraid to burn a client in this market but I'm not sure the variations in signatures is something I should take full responsibility for. Any thoughts?

Reply by Eric Andrist on 8/20/13 5:12pm
Msg #481273

What if you redo them and they're still all different? I'd ask the signers to call the company and vouch for them being theirs. I know as I signer I wouldn't mind doing that, rather than having to have someone come and do them all over.

Reply by Mary_in_VA on 8/20/13 5:20pm
Msg #481276

Need a little more info:

Is this a situation where signatures vary because they left out something, i.e. should be signing "John S. Doe" and signed "John Doe" or "JS Doe"? If this is the case, then you should have caught it and you should correct it.

Or do they have scrawl that is inconsistent? (I have a "signature", but it is reliably consistent!) If this is the case, they need to speak with the borrower, explain exactly what the problem is, and pay you to go back out.

Or is it simply that you had a very large package and the handwriting simply deteriorated by the end of it? In this case, asking the borrower to resign may not improve the problem at all.
(I always pull out the most important docs, including the signature affidavit, and have those signed first, then other lender docs and title docs, then any crap the broker sends. On really large packages the signatures usually look absolutely horrible by the end of the broker docs, but I've never had a problem with them.)

Best of luck! I know this is a PITA!

Reply by Eric Andrist on 8/20/13 5:24pm
Msg #481278

Mary, I've seen other people mention pulling out docs to be signed first. What do you do about companies that request that they be returned in exactly the same order? Do you mark them somehow or just go through the PDF to see how they were originally?

Reply by HSH/WA on 8/20/13 5:36pm
Msg #481288

Re: Turns out to be the signature affidavit page

I think he signed all the variations first and then did his regular signature which may have been sightly different due to the fact that he had just finished signing all the variations in a unfamiliar format. It just seems that if the signature is close and is legally notarized that the title company is being a pain. I'm going to get it resigned because this is one of the few SSs I occasionally get a call from. As a side note the gal who called said business was so slow they've just did a massive layoff.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 8/20/13 6:46pm
Msg #481303

Sometimes, Close really does only counts in horseshoes &

hand grenades, especially when it comes to legal documents.

"It just seems that if the signature is close and is legally notarized that the title company is being a pain."

Yes, there are some TC's (and lenders) that have a reputation for being "a pain" because they are sticklers for what seems to be every little detail. Once you run across one, it is best to make a note for your own records for future requests and be sure that everything on any future files from them is done exactly as they like. It just saves you head aches down the road.

As others point out, perhaps it is a matter of MI being used when it should not be or not used when it should be? I'm not saying that is the case, just that there is not enough info in OP to determine exactly what the issues are for the TC and/or Lender.

It is a different story if it is a matter of the signer(s) being tired after signing something like 175 pages, with 75 of them being duplicates or very near duplicates. What is the company telling you is the exact issue with the signatures and why they "don't match"?
"Don't match" what, the other signatures, the printed name(s) on the docs, their DL's ?

Reply by sueharke on 8/21/13 1:38am
Msg #481344

Re: Sometimes, Close really does only counts in horseshoes &

What happens when the escrow docs and the title docs don't always have the same name or leave out an initial on some forms?

Reply by Mary_in_VA on 8/20/13 6:23pm
Msg #481298

Sorry for the delay...I was fixing dinner!

I rarely get such instructions and most don't come with such dire warnings that I can't just ignore them, and I do. I've never had a package sent back or had my fee docked. Again, it's mostly just those critical docs and the ones that borrowers care about that I pull to the front, and most title companies and lenders are looking for those first anyway!

I only very, very, very rarely deal with one company that is very,very adamant, in which case I try to "flag" the critical documents as they come out of my printer so I can review with borrowers first and have signed first. And these usually don't have broker packages attached.

Reply by MW/VA on 8/20/13 7:12pm
Msg #481305

Eric, I always put the docs in a signing order that works

for me. HUD, payment letter, note, DOT, TIL, RTC's, etc.
I have a certain flow that gets the signing done without any hiccups.
I've also never got any complaints & get lots of repeat business. I think that speaks for itself.
It also affirms that I know what I'm doing, IMO.

Reply by GOLDGIRL/CA on 8/20/13 5:31pm
Msg #481283

Is this by any chance a Provident loan?

If it is, there's no way out (that I know of.)

If it's not, I've never had a TC or any other lender complain about signatures that "don't match." It could be because your borrower signed different ways. Did you notice? Like a clearly readable: Joseph Lawrence Smithereen to start out with and by the end was signing JLS in some sort of indecipherable squiggle. If that's what happened, you probably gotta go back on your dime. I've seen borrowers try to change their signature midway through the docs. You have to keep an eye on them.
But if they signed the exact same way throughout, I'd try to talk some sense into the TC ... or better yet, have the borrowers talk sense.

Reply by Susan Fischer on 8/20/13 5:32pm
Msg #481285

I'd be one p-o'd borrower if I had to resign. My sigs are

just NOT the same, and after the 213th time, certainly would be sloppier than the first 50 or so.

What a colossal waste of time and resources, and patience. Was it Provident?

I like your idea of having the requester talk to the borrowers first. Jeez, what a pita.

Reply by Eric Andrist on 8/20/13 6:00pm
Msg #481294

Me too. n/m

Reply by Sylvia_FL on 8/20/13 6:39pm
Msg #481301

Re: I'd be one p-o'd borrower if I had to resign. My sigs are

my signature is not the same every time either. The RA is so bad that it is sometimes hard just holding the pen firmly.

Reply by RickG/CA on 8/20/13 5:36pm
Msg #481289

Re: On the verge of not passing the sniff test

beware of any "additional" dox

Reply by HSH/WA on 8/20/13 5:40pm
Msg #481290

Re: Please don't check the notary's signatures

because mine differ too - especially different loans on different days.

Reply by sheltn on 8/20/13 6:42pm
Msg #481302

Re: Please don't check the notary's signatures

I even mispelled my own name.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/20/13 7:14pm
Msg #481306

Re: Please don't check the notary's signatures

LOL - I've misspelled my name too. When I was signing Julianne I would put in lots of n's at the end or if the BO's were talking to me.

Reply by jba/fl on 8/20/13 6:15pm
Msg #481296

You hAve not answered some of the questions put to you. Why?

We can actually help better if we know what is going on.

Reply by HisHughness on 8/20/13 8:22pm
Msg #481316

A signature is a signature

As long as it meets the format requirements of the title company and lender, it doesn't matter how much the borrower's signature differs from document to document <<<if you saw him sign it.>>> The signature is valid and legally binding, which is the only thing the title company should be worried about.

By all means, tell whoever is requiring a resign that you'll be happy to go back out; you are, after all, in a service business, and that's the service you offer. Point out, of course, that the title company is in the business of paying for services, and then set your fee for that particular service.

If you let them bully you into doing this free, you can bet every dime that you did NOT make on this transaction that they will bully you in the future.

Reply by John/CT on 8/21/13 9:54am
Msg #481363

Re: A signature is a signature

Agree, Hugh. A frequent contributor to this forum (also an attorney) once wrote, "In Connecticut any mark made with the intent to authenticate is a legal signature".

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/20/13 10:17pm
Msg #481331

It's really ridiculous, isn't it? I know that even *my* signature changes when I'm doing a lot of signing at one time. For somebody who isn't used to that and is signing hundreds of pages, their hand fatigue and there will be variation.

I wouldn't go out on my own dime for this. I would tell client you personally witnessed all of the signatures and the variation (assuming that's what happened) is because the signers were fatigued after signing numeroud pages. A variation in the signature doesn't negate the fact that somebody signed it.

Here's an example. I once attended a signing where one of the borrowers had injured his right arm and was in a cast. He could not sign his name as he normally would, but he tried his best. For the first few pages, it looked like the signature on his DL...for the most part. But, eventually, it started deteriorating.

How is that deterioration my fault? It isn't. Does it negate the fact the the poor guy still signed everything? No, it doesn't. As far as I'm concerned, there's no problem. If I had a client trying to pull this, I wouldn't go back on my own dime. no way.

Reply by HSH/WA on 8/20/13 10:27pm
Msg #481333

Re: Call me weak but I agreed to get it resigned

without asking for more compensation and in this market I don't want to piss the SS off. But I think most of us agree the title company is being a pain and in a normal market I could have ask and received additional compensation. No not Provident. Thanks for all your input.

Reply by HisHughness on 8/20/13 10:35pm
Msg #481334

***the variation (assuming that's what happened) is because the signers were fatigued after signing numeroud pages.***

You don't have to give the title company <any> reason for a variation. A borrower can decide to change the appearance of his signature at any point, and as many times as he wishes. If you have witnessed the signature, it is HIS signature, and it is valid and legally binding.

On top of all that, no one, once the transaction gets past the lender and the title company, is going to see those signatures as part of a package; the variation is going to be immaterial to any question of fraud. And both the TC and the lender have your assurances that the signatures are valid. What is the issue, and what is the TC trying to do?

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/20/13 10:42pm
Msg #481335

Oh, I agree....

My guess? It's a ruse because they failed to include some pages or critical docs and need to have it redone...so they're making up some lame excuse to guilt the notary in to doing it for free.

Reply by HSH/WA on 8/20/13 11:15pm
Msg #481336

Re: No just one page, same as sent out before. Anyway,

it's signed - again. They wanted it faxed back before I fedex - what they want to make sure he signed his signature to their satisfaction? Hopefully, they will be happy and we call all have a laugh over it.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 8/21/13 3:20am
Msg #481347

Hugh, I often wonder at the reasoning behind lenders' request that borrowers sign with their names "exactly as typed". That has never made any sense to me. Nearly everyone has a normal signature - or way that they sign their name. We so often have to ask them to sign differently than they usually do - and then the lenders expect it to come out nearly the same every time? That seems to be adding the ridiculous to the absurd, imo.... And like you said, we were physically there to witness them sign those documents!

I realize that most of these concerns come from lenders who want to sell the loans, but still wonder at the rationale and would love to hear from someone who has some insight into the process of loans being sold on the market. Do these things factor into the negotiations when a loan servicer is buying a bundle of loans? Just speculating here, but it's such a common challenge, it would be nice to have better answers about why this is such a big deal. It might also help to deal with borrowers who get upset about having to temporarily change their signature.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 8/21/13 4:02am
Msg #481352

I wonder the same thing. It makes no sense to me. The way a person signs is the way a person signs... and I know that with me, personally... nobody is going to tell ME what my legal signature should look like.