Posted by Patricia Havens on 12/12/13 8:06pm
Msg #495946

California notaries: please read and join me

I am sending the following letter to my state senator and assemblyman. I hope you will join me in copying it and sending it to your state rep. as well to help our clients. Thanks.
Dear Assemblyman Holden:

I am writing to request that legislation be written to require assisted living facilities to provide residents with on-site credible witnesses when legal documents requiring such witnesses need to be signed.

I am a notary public and frequently encounter elderly and disabled individuals who have no current or available government-issued identification. Under California law, notaries are required to have “two credible witnesses whose identities are proven upon the presentation of satisfactory evidence.” We then must have these two witnesses sign our notarial journal and provide their identifying document (usually their driver’s license) to record in the journal. These witnesses are merely providing their word that the individual signing the document is the person named in the document.

The elderly and disabled are residents of long-term and assisted living facilities with no access to nearby friends and neighbors who have known them all their lives. Frequently their disabilities prevent them from easy access to the Department of Motor Vehicles, where a California Identification Card can be issued.

I have encountered several circumstances in which staff at assisted living facilities were uninformed about the laws regarding notarial requirements. Explaining the laws to them is difficult, to say the least, especially when English is not their first language. My clients required powers of attorney and property deed transfers to be signed. Obviously, these are documents of vital importance to their lives and finances.

If there were a law requiring these facilities to make staff available to serve in these capacities, it would be a fantastic service for these residents and a real difference in their lives. There is no cost or liability involved to the facilities.

Thank you for your attention to this matter.

Reply by MW/VA on 12/12/13 8:32pm
Msg #495948

I respect your taking up this cause. In my experience with

these situations, the staff at the facilities are not allowed to act as witnesses. It is considered a conflict of interest. It's the same reasons they can't have a notary on staff handle matters such as these. It eliminates the possibility of someone on staff taking advantage of someone in a diminished capacity (such as signing over their assets, etc.)
While it's a PIA, it is really for their protection.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 12/12/13 9:13pm
Msg #495953

I'm pretty familiar with the RCFE (assisted living) system here in California... and I can tell you that this will not go over well at all. Why?

First, many of the home owners will not take kindly to even more rules. They are heavily regulated by the CCLD. In order for somebody to move in to one of these facilities (assisted living only...NOT skilled nursing, in CA these are two very different types of facilities) they must have a physician fill out a form, and the home owners (whether it be a small 4-6 bed board and card home or a large facility (Like a Belmont or Sunrise) have to maintain extensive files on each resident. They are regulated to DEATH. HOWEVER... none of the staff can really speak to actual identity... in fact, that vast majority are expressly prohibited from doing so for insurance liability reasons. One of the biggest reasons for that is because these witnesses are not allowed to be a party to a transaction or benefit from a transaction. When owners or employees of residents start acting as witnesses, it can get dicey because it may give an appearance of conflict of interest, even in cases where none exist.

Also, many of the caregivers in these homes barely speak English. The vast majority of them are from the Philippines, especially in Southern California. One of the requirements notaries have is that they have to be able to communicate with people directly. Having had a LOT of experience with these caregivers (10 years now), I can tell you this is really, really difficult. These caregivers don't really know the residents well enough to vouch for their identity.

Second, these RCFEs generally offer transportation to their residents. The vast majority of these homes will take their residents to doctor, DMV and shopping at no charge several times per month. Some charge per trip... but I don't know of any that never provide it -- and believe me, I know a LOT of RCFE homeowners and administrators in the Los Angeles area. Many of the homes have special vehicles equipped to handle the elderly or disabled, or they utilize the services of dial-a-ride. Believe me... short of being bedridden or so far gone in to dementia, these seniors have every opportunity to get the the DMV and should insist on it, especially if they are paying $3-7K a month to the facility for their care. The DMV will come to them if they are bedridden, but only if they are bedridden.

Skilled nursing facilities are different and have different rules... but are similar in that the medical staff is generally forbidden from acting as witnesses for patients. SNF patients usually qualify for the DMV to come to them.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/13/13 1:13am
Msg #495969

Sorry, I don't think it's a good idea, either. The purpose of the credible witness isn't just to get a signature on a page to overcome a legal requirement. A credible witness is supposed to be someone who KNOWS that that person is the one named in the document. The folks at an assisted living facility only know what they've been told about the signer by the signer and their family and likely have no personal relationship beyond that. Besides, I think it would be a liability nightmare for the owners of those kinds of facilities.

I'm sure you mean well with your suggestion, but a better way to go about it, I believe, would be to find some way to make it easier for those folks to get access to the DMV to be able to get a senior citizen ID card. That takes the burden off the residence owner and solves the problem. Someone here once mentioned that the DMV offered a mobile service to home bound individuals, but my guess is that funding has been cut for that. Perhaps you could research that possibility and lobby to get it reinstated or expanded.

Reply by ikando on 12/14/13 9:27am
Msg #496110

In Oklahoma same problem

I agree with Janet. But in Oklahoma, we have no way to get someone to the client who is unable to get to the DMV. I think that's the solution. And legislators should be made aware of the issues because they're the ones who can cause the change.

Reply by Notarysigner on 12/13/13 7:49am
Msg #495984

It has been my experience, always easy, to contact the Social Worker, in fact THAT'S who usually calls me.
Large facilities usually have a Social Worker on site and for the caregivers in private homes, I always find out from the calling party why is it they need my services first and then take it from there. No I.D. then provide witnesses is what I tell them.