Posted by Serina/VT on 12/20/13 4:37pm
Msg #496777
Need input ASAP
I have a reverse mortgage signing that I did the app for as well. During the app I noted that the lender had the borrowers name as Jane T. Doe Her ID is Jane M. Doe. I pointed this discrepancy out to the lender on Oct 31st. The borrower said she USED to use her maiden name as her middle name years (like 40) ago and the T was probably that. All well and fine but I can't ID her with that middle initial. Lender is insisting she sign with a T.
Ideas?
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/20/13 4:46pm
Msg #496778
How loose are your ID requirements
Is it only "satisfactory evidence" and "nothing to the contrary" or are you required to physically SEE something with the right name with specific acceptable identification documents.
Only other thing I can think of is a quit claim deed (or corrective deed) signed by Jane M. formerly known as Jane T, conveying property to Jane M. - then the package will fall into line for you. Not so sure it's your business to request this, though.
Good Luck.
| Reply by Serina/VT on 12/20/13 4:54pm
Msg #496779
Re: How loose are your ID requirements
Here is what the SOS website says;
"Vermont law is not as explicit as California's, and yet there is good reason for every Vermont notary to set high standards for identification before performing notarial acts. A notary is liable to the person involved for all damages caused by his or her official misconduct. 24 V.S.A. §446. Vermont law does not require a bond for notaries, and, although many states do require a bond, the list of claims made against those bonds is convincing evidence that creditors and others who have relied on notarization as a protection against false claims will indeed seek to hold notaries liable for their actions. We have not heard of such suits in Vermont, but the potential for them is always present.
To that end, we recommend utmost prudence in the performance of notarial acts. Your greatest vulnerability comes from acknowledgments of signatures by signers you don't know personally. If you don't know the person to be who he or she claims to be, you have three choices. You may refuse to act. You may rely on a credible witness, who is personally known to you. Or, to be most prudent, you can insist that a credible witness personally known to you takes and signs a written oath, administered by you as a notary, that he or she personally knows the signer. As a notary, you are then testifying to the witness's oath."
| Reply by Jack/AL on 12/20/13 4:57pm
Msg #496780
If I understand correctly, the "T" for her maiden name is what is missing from the id. Here is what has worked for me, in Alabama, but I do not know if it is OK in your location/situation. I've had similar signings in which I asked to see the borrower's birth certificate. When the birth certificate confirmed the missing letter or name, I simply used the Name Affidavit and made a line entry for the original full name, plus an entry for the name as on docs (showing the letter that begins the missing/no longer used name). I suggest calling title and asking if that will work, if your state allows such, and if you are comfortable with it.
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 12/20/13 5:00pm
Msg #496781
My attitude is that notaries should use their knowledge of normal American naming customs, together with naming customs of any ethic groups the notary has a thorough knowledge of, to account for the friction that results from people using different, but legitimate, versions of their name. Together with this is the DMVs which are constantly changing the rules, from forcing women to use a maiden name as a middle name, to not allowing that, to dropping middle initials altogether.
The State of Vermont doesn't have any guidance on this that I know of, but there is a quasi-governmental organization that does: The National Conference of Commissioners on Uniform State Laws drafts laws which the Conference SUGGESTS states adopt, and one of their suggested laws is the Revised Uniform Law on Notarial Acts (RULONA for short). It hasn't been adopted by Vermont, but it has been adopted by four states. See
http://www.uniformlaws.org/Act.aspx?title=Law%20on%20Notarial%20Acts,%20Revised
Here is what they have to say about middle names:
"Identification of an individual based on an identification credential requires some flexibility. For example, it is not uncommon that an individual’s name as used in a record may be a full name, including a full middle name; however, the name of the individual as provided on the identification credential may only use a middle initial or none at all. The inconsistency may be vice versa instead. The notarial officer should recognize these common inconsistencies when performing the identification of an individual. However, if a notarial officer is ultimately uncertain about the identity of the individual, the notarial officer should refuse to perform the notarial act (see Section 8.)"
So if you decide to be a bit flexible, there is the Conference and four states that say you're not crazy. Consider other factors: does the signer have physical access to the house that is to secure the mortgage? Does her name appear in the town's Grand List (often available online)? Such factors could be more compelling than which middle name she used. Maybe you have a mutual acquaintance who can be used as a credible witness.
| Reply by Serina/VT on 12/20/13 5:12pm
Msg #496782
The bigger issue is the ID acknowledgement they need signed saying I ID'd this lady and used her license. I have signed people before where the middle name or even the last name was different from the ID but the signature lines alway read Jane M. Doe F/K/A Jane T. Doe. That I am ok with.
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 12/20/13 5:58pm
Msg #496788
One option is to use the acknowledgement from the SOS's manual, which does not make any statement about how you ID'd the person. But anyway, you WILL be using the license, and interpreting the license in combination with the typical flexibility that American married or widowed women have with their middle name, and combined with whatever other factors you are using to determine you have the right person.
| Reply by Bear900/CA on 12/20/13 5:15pm
Msg #496783
A lot of good information if you do a search "wrong initial" n/m
| Reply by Notarysigner on 12/20/13 5:20pm
Msg #496784
Who else could she be? Property address, utility records, bank records....satisfactory evidence.
Did she apply for the loan or did somebody else? Gheez!
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/20/13 5:42pm
Msg #496785
Who else could she be?
Without ID proving that she is person named in the docs (the owner of the house)- she could be the daughter of the owner - not such an outlandish idea. Utility bills won't cut it...suppose they just have first and last name with no middle initial? Then what.
If she can't prove she's the person named in the documents, for me it's a no-go. And our statutes are clear on that - page 32 of our handbook:
"From Subsection 117.05(5) of the Florida Statutes
A notary public may not notarize a signature on a document unless he or she personally knows, or has satisfactory evidence, that the person whose signature is to be notarized is the individual who is described in and who is executing the instrument"
http://www.flgov.com/wp-content/uploads/notary/ref_manual23-40.pdf
| Reply by Notarysigner on 12/20/13 5:57pm
Msg #496787
Re: Who else could she be?
Ours is a little different Linda, here, Calif. page 21 of the notary vendor's workbook (which they use to teach notaries) states. " i.
Satisfactory Evidence
Satisfactory evidence is the absence of any information, evidence, or other circumstances which would lead a reasonable person to believe that the individual is not the individual he or she claims to be and (A) paper identification documents meeting certain requirements or (B) the oath of a single credible witness or (C) the oaths of two credible witnesses. (California Civil Code section 1185(b).) Since January 1, 2008, a notary public’s personal knowledge of a signer is not sufficient to establish the identity of the signer.
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 12/20/13 6:13pm
Msg #496789
Re: Who else could she be?
OK, so FL says you have to have "satisfactory evidence". So does FL give a more complete description of what "satisfactory evidence" means in terms of the name on the ID being similar to the name on the ID? Four states that passed the RULONA that I described above say you could have satisfactory evidence, even though there is a full middle name in the document but no middle name in the ID (so long as the notary isn't uncertain about the signer's identity. See page 18 of the following:
http://www.uniformlaws.org/shared/docs/notarial_acts/rulona_final_10.pdf
Granted, FL has not passed RULNOA. But in the absence of a provision of law, or a court decision, that a phrase has a special meaning, words in laws have their normal meaning. Here we have an interstate commission and four states that think "satisfactory evidence" can include some flexibility with respect to middle names. So can you provide a Florida document that says it's different in Florida, that in Florida the ID must exactly match the document?
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/20/13 7:12pm
Msg #496794
I didn't think everyone would want to see a citation
of our entire handbook on this - but identification documents are listed along with the procedure for credible witnesses. That link I posted takes you to the section, page 32 outlines identification of the signer and includes all the acceptable ID documents.
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 12/20/13 7:45pm
Msg #496796
Re: I didn't think everyone would want to see a citation
I read the link you provided. It did indeed give a list of acceptable documents. By the way, the RULONA I mentioned earlier also gives a list of acceptable IDs (p. 16). But the Florida manual does not say how closely the name on the ID must match the name on the document. Nor does it say whether or not documents not listed may be used to supplement one of the acceptable documents.
We know that the authorities that issue documents, such as the DMVs and US State Department (for passports) are allowed a great deal of flexibility to "connect the dots" using things such as birth certificates, affidavits from parents, court-ordered name changes, and other public documents, to decide whether a person has proven his/her identity. I think we would all be nervous about giving notaries that much latitude. But at the same time, the Florida notary manual just says that, if using identification credentials to ID the signer, the signer must have "one of the following forms of identification". It doesn't say if you can use unlisted documents to resolve an uncertainty.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/20/13 7:49pm
Msg #496797
We do have options in this scenario though
WE can do "sworn/acknowledged by Jane M. Doe, who represented to me that she took title as Jane T. Doe, and provided <whatever> in the name of Jane M. Doe as ID"
I was simply addressing James' question "who else could she be?" - and the answer to that is "with 2 different initials she could be any number of "other" people.
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 12/20/13 8:10pm
Msg #496798
Re: We do have options in this scenario though
Who else could she be? Two Jane Does in the same family isn't all that unlikely. Serena didn't outline what additional information she had. If Jane Doe's driver license gives her street address, and the signing occurs at that address, which is the property securing the mortgage, the chances just got much smaller. If Jane is about the right age to be taking out a reverse mortgage, the chances of two Jane Does are smaller still.
| Reply by Notarysigner on 12/20/13 9:08pm
Msg #496800
Sounds to me that you don't even
care about "notary handbooks". The California notary handbook "describes" in detail what the definition of Satisfactory evidence.
Calif and FL defer on a lot of things but that doesn't mean one is correct and the other isn't. I you are pushing for "national notary standards" just say so, it's O.K.
Wondering what your preference would be, Ca or Fl or yours?
| Reply by Notarysigner on 12/20/13 9:26pm
Msg #496802
sorry for the typo's n/m
| Reply by VT_Syrup on 12/20/13 9:59pm
Msg #496805
Re: Sounds to me that you don't even
Summarizing the differences I see among the notary handbooks:
CA and FL have similar lists of acceptable credentials. VT says it's OK to ID based on identification credentials, but doesn't say which ones are acceptable. A recent notary forum held by the SOS said that contrary to the handbook, credentials should be considered a better choice than a credible witness. California says notaries should use "reasonable reliance" on credentials; FL doesn't say how to use the credentials.
VT and FL allow personal knowledge, CA doesn't.
FL and CA allow two credible witnesses who know the signer but not the notary; they present ID credentials to the notary. All 3 states allow one credible witness who knows the signer and the notary. FL and CA require the credible witness(es) to swear it would be difficult for the signer to obtain ID credentials, and that the signer doesn't have any of the credentials named in the law. This is difficult if the signer does have ID credentials, but is using a different name than in the credential. Vermont allows one credible witness personally known to the notary, and whether the signer has ID credentials doesn't matter.
None of these laws or handbooks explain any of the name issues that come up over and over:
Full middle name on doc but only initial on ID, or no middle name on ID
Whether suffixes like Jr are part of the name, and if so, if the document and ID have to match with respect to the suffix.
Maiden name on doc (either in the middle or last position) but married name on ID (or vice-versa).
Doc has nickname and ID has longer first name (like Bill and William) (or vice-versa).
The RULONA is the only law I've seen that addresses how closely the name on an ID has to match the document for the notary to have satisfactory evidence that the signer is the right person; it allows some flexibility.
I don't think there should be a federal law about notarization. I do think it would be pretty convenient if the states could agree on a uniform law adopted by all the states. The Uniform Commercial Code certainly seems to have smoothed commerce among the states, I think a uniform law on notarization would do the same.
Failing that, I think states should recognize a few basic principles.
A person who changes his name doesn't still owns his property, so reasonable means should be available for the person to exercise all his property rights despite the name change.
Loosing one's ID is different from dying. Catch-22s that require one to have ID to replace one's ID is not acceptable.
People come to a state from other states and countries. Putting lots of details in notary laws about what an ID must contain to be valid will prevent many of these people from conducting business in your state, and make them want to bad-mouth your state all over the world.
| Reply by Linda_H/FL on 12/20/13 7:32pm
Msg #496795
Sorry..missed your last question.
It's not so much an exact match - but when you have a totally different middle initial you can't discount the fact that it could be 2 different people.
I have to be satisfied that Jane M. Doe, the person in front of me, is the person named in the documents. The person in the documents is Jane T. Doe - I do not have that proof. She can tell me anything she wants and talk til she's blue in the face...but I have no proof....so no go.
There is no proof that Jane M. Doe is one and the same as Jane T. Doe.
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