Posted by notarydi/CA on 12/3/13 8:40pm
Msg #494887

price fixing.....

so, a couple of weeks ago I stopped in my local XXXX home improvement store and inquired about a wrought iron handrail that I want ordered/installed at my front entrance/porch and down a couple of steps. I just think it would be helpful for older folks (myself included at some point) to have something there for folks to hang on to. I have a lot of brick work out front. Anyway, the estimator called me today to say that basically they don't do jobs that small and he would not be keeping the appointment today. Their sub-contractor that they use has a minimum job order fee of $659. REALLY, not $658? or $660? How do they come up with these numbers? My point (finally) is how come pretty much every industry can set minimum fees, and yet, if our industry even thinks about setting standardized rates/minimum fees, it seems to be frowned upon and a no-no?

Thanks for letting me vent.

Reply by Buddy Young on 12/3/13 8:52pm
Msg #494890

I have my own minimum fee.

Although we can't set a minimum fee for all notaries to use, we can set our own. It's up to you to know what you will make you to walk out the door.

I have a minimum fee for overnight docs, a fee for edocs, then I add on for extras like large packages, fax backs mileage, etc.

Reply by MW/VA on 12/3/13 9:04pm
Msg #494895

Ditto, Buddy. That's basically the same thing I told the

DOJ when they called about investigating the NNA for their "suggested minimum fee" schedule. We decide what we will or will not accept.

Reply by LKT/CA on 12/3/13 8:53pm
Msg #494891

That's just the minimum HE is willing to walk out the door for. Did you get other bids? Did they all say the same thing? I'm no lawyer, but it would seem that first it would have to be the same minimum amount across the board. In other words, if you called 10 contractors, and they ALL said they wouldn't walk out the door for a job less that $659, then that raises an eyebrow. But then you'd have to prove they all colluded/conspired to abide by that minimum dollar figure.

In our industry, there's too many employee minded folks (willing to do a reverse mortgage signing for $60) to set a standard minimum.

Reply by CarolF/NC on 12/3/13 9:00pm
Msg #494893

It us not price fixing to know what your

competition is charging and charge accordingly. But in this business signing agents rather cut their competitors fees than meet them. As a whole we are a dumb service provider industry.

Reply by MikeC/TX on 12/3/13 9:03pm
Msg #494894

While I understand your frustration, having dealt with contractors who thought the job was too small for them to bother with (and who later went belly up because no one would hire them), a minimum fee quoted by one company is not price fixing. If everyone you contacted quoted the same fee for the same job, you might have an argument....

Reply by HSH/WA on 12/3/13 10:45pm
Msg #494903

Re: It would be nice if we could

all agree on a set of guidelines to follow for fees, but lately I've found that the SS/TC's won't even spend a minute talking to you if want to negotiate their offer. There are just too many hungry notarys willing to accept fees at 60% of what we were getting a few months ago. Too little business for too many notarys. So even if WE all agreed they would find others to do the work for today's lower fees.

Reply by CarolF/NC on 12/3/13 10:50pm
Msg #494904

Price fixing is a practice in which the prices for goods and services are manipulated in a way which is designed to benefit specific companies or individuals. In a simple example of price fixing, two rival gas stations could meet and decide to offer their gas at the same price, creating an artificially high price for gasoline which consumers would be forced to pay through lack of choice. Usually, this practice is illegal, and in some nations, it comes with severe legal consequences.

“If two companies happen to sell competing products at the same price, it is only considered price fixing if collusion can be proved. In other words, if two supermarkets both sell packs of a dozen eggs at the same cost, this would not be illegal. If, however, someone could prove that the owners of the supermarkets held a secret meeting in which they decided to sell their eggs at the same price, it would be considered price fixing.

“Often, price fixing results in price gouging. In a free market where businesses adjust prices to meet supply and demand needs, prices can fluctuate a great deal, but they are generally considered fair. When people collude, they usually elevate prices significantly, creating a price discrimination situation in which prices rise well above a level which would be considered acceptable. Many people believe that this practice hurts the economy as a whole, which is one of the reasons it is frowned upon.”

Now none of us are banding together in a back alley or secret meeting place practicing collusion, price gouging, or anything of the sort. We all just want to paid what our services are worth. It is not unlike any plummer, dentist, maid, etc wanting to be paid a fair price for the services that they provide. And my take on it is just because we give each other a ball park or share personal pricing information does not mean that we are engaging in any thing illegal or involved in this ‘price fixing business’.

IMO, when we share information on fees we are providing examples, not recommendations. I have many ask what I charge personally for regular notary work and I freely let folks know that since I am in California and I charge a minimum of 50.00 for travel and 10.00 per signature per notarization as a notary fee (10.00 is the standard) and I limit myself to a 20 mile radius for this price. In fact many notaries in other parts of the US tell me that they can hardly get 20.00 for travel..let alone 50.00. When it comes to a loan signing there are many more factors for me to consider. I will want to know from the hiring party how many loans there are (in other words is it a refi with a second, piggyback or straight refi,etc), distance, fax backs required, etc and whether I will have to print or will they be overnighted to the borrowers and available at the signing location. All of this information will be key in determining what price I am going to charge. I never ever ask a company what they are willing to pay. This is my business and although much of what we provide is considered a community service I still need to know that I am going to recoup my costs and make a profit so that my family and I can eat.

So I think it would be fair to say that when we share notary fees with each other these are ment to be for informational purposes only. Every notary will have to access what their operating costs are and then determine a price that they can get in their area and in turn live with and of course they must stay competitive by knowing what others are charging in their area. This is no different than any other business .Don’t think for one second that other business of like kind don’t keep up with their competition.

Reply by jba/fl on 12/3/13 11:06pm
Msg #494907

Did you write this, or sharing?

If sharing, you need to give credit to the original author.

Reply by JJNotary/CA on 12/3/13 11:23pm
Msg #494909

I’ve only been on the Notary side of this business for a year, my question to those who have been at this longer is: do you find that those who accept very low fees end up not sticking with it? (I can’t see how they would make ends meet at the end of the year)

Reply by CarolF/NC on 12/3/13 11:47pm
Msg #494912

Depends...

3 went out of business in my area after about 18 months. Some get free paper, gas, ink so they seem to make it . One is using a company vehicle from another job and one does all their printing and faxing from their employers office.

Reply by Moneyman/TX on 12/4/13 12:30am
Msg #494915

That is called being a thief. Someone that steals from thier

...current employer would not be someone that I would consider to be trustworthy enough to handle strangers private, personal information, imo.

Reply by BobbiCT on 12/4/13 7:26am
Msg #494932

Warped LOL - privacy right out the window...

Any e-mails, printing, copying, scanning and faxing done on employer's equipment makes those documents and information the property of the employer and subject to viewing by anyone in the company ... providing they know how to find it. Also, most employees subject to "right of employer to view anything done on company time."

Hope when the employer trades in that printer or copier the "stored data" is wiped clean. If not, all that information is available to the geek who knows how to steal it right off the machine. Repeated warned of this in day job; plus geeky relatives have shown me how to get it off someone else's electronic equipment.

Reply by NVLSlady/VA on 12/4/13 1:37pm
Msg #494983

Moneyman, there are "darker" forces at work here.

As a writer, I cannot abide people using my words without my authorization - no more than an employer would if an employee habitually stole company supplies.

Among fellow TRUSTED professionals, the implications are far worse.

Reply by JJNotary/CA on 12/4/13 11:45am
Msg #494960

wow, that's incredible. Surely their training covered that.

There is no way those are good business practices, even with GNW.

Reply by jba/fl on 12/4/13 12:28pm
Msg #494962

You didn't answer - did you write this piece? Or did you

steal it from another? I want an answer, and think we all deserve to know.

Credit your source, or state that you received and are passing along.

Reply by CarolF/NC on 12/4/13 8:06am
Msg #494939

I did not write it....

Came to me in a group email only noting that it was taken from a blog. Sorry I do not know the source. There are some quotes in there taken directly from the FTC website. Just thought it was interesting information.

Reply by JanetK_CA on 12/4/13 4:34pm
Msg #495011

Re: I did not write it....

Thanks for setting the record straight. Including the first sentence or two in this post in your original post would have been sufficient to prevent this entire discussion.

Reply by MAC/WA on 12/4/13 8:12pm
Msg #495053

I recognized the FTC material, I took the time to read it

Not offended by the lack of quotation marks. I'd rather talk about the point being made.

Reply by Marian_in_CA on 12/4/13 12:07am
Msg #494913

This isn't price fixing

Every individual business can set whatever minimum fees it needs to in order to make a profit. Profit margins vary greatly from business to business. In our line of work, it varies a whole lot more, as do individual expenses in order to get a job done.

In many industries, there may be a an average based on research, but that doesn't mean it's a minimum fee or price fixing.

For example, let's say I need a new toilet. Well, actually I do... so the idea is fresh in my head right now. The toilet in my master bath has been leaking and we just discovered a small crack in the base that has apparently been there for years, but it's finally become quite bad. Nope. Anyway... I've never had to buy one before so I had no clue what one would cost me.

I have some minimum standards/features I'm looking for. In my research, I've found that there are models meeting my needs that range from about $80 to $5000. Prices vary based on all kinds of qualities I never new mattered in a loo. Does that mean that the toilet industry has gathered together and said, "Thou shalt not sell a can for less than $80, no matter what." No, of course not. What that tells me is that the average lowest retail price on a cheap john is about $80- $90. Of course, looking at reviews of those cheap toilets, I'm not so comfortable buying one that cheap. I think I'd rather spend a little more to get a higher quality commode. Now, if all I had was $100... then I don't really have much of a choice. I go for the el cheapo throne and hope for the best, knowing that I'm taking a bit of a risk.

The same can be said for our industry. We set our prices based on our expenses, quality of our work, profit margin, etc. If a company can't afford us... they can't afford us. If we cut our prices to make them happy... we can certainly do that, but we have to understand that reducing our price cuts or eliminates our profit margin, possibly even working at a loss.

People, don't be sellin' your gravity fed, elongated heated seat toilets at a comfort height with dual flush for the price of a simple, ice cold porcelain bowl with a plastic lid.

Reply by notarydi/CA on 12/4/13 1:21am
Msg #494918

thanks all for listening to my rant.....

I just got frustrated with someone telling me "the job's too small" and "$659 is my minimum". I don't think I have ever told anyone "the job's too small". If I have availability, I work. I have my set minimum that I don't go below. Fax backs and large packages are extra. I know what I need to charge that is fair and competitive and makes a profit. I am not a non-profit. That said, I realize this contractor was not price fixing, and, I just need to shop the job around. For someone, it will be a job and a needed income.....even if it is small! btw, go for the heated toilet Marian!

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 12/4/13 7:02am
Msg #494929

Marian, you know you want one of those GOLD seated thrones! n/m

Reply by Amigoaz on 12/4/13 9:31am
Msg #494946

Toilets

Marian, thanks for the laugh reading your toilet story. I forgot how many different names we use for this necessary device. Of course there are a couple more that you wouldn't use on a public forum.
FYI, I installed a self-closing toilet seat on one of ours and now I'm better at putting the lid down.

Reply by C. Rivera Chicago Notary Services on 12/4/13 6:43am
Msg #494925

my pricing is listed on my website...to sum I'm letting

my competition know my prices and they can try to undercut me. But for me, that doesn't matter as much as I still get business.

If nsa's want to see my pricing, feel free, its public notice. If they feel they can go "cheaper" then IMO, they are ripping themselves off.

Of course my fees are negotiable, if I get a call directly from the signer/borrower for a closing.

For GNW I charge a travel fee, notarization's are free, but if there are more than 3 signers, multiple documents, over 10, then I may charge the whopping $1 fee per signature/notarization.

For NSA's work, fees are different.

If someone thinks that I am "price fixing" by setting my fees out there, oh well, not the case, and to each his own.

Notarydi, that story is very interesting, and I agree with you, seriously frowned upon in our business, only because the DOJ got involved years ago with the XYZ company, oh well.

Reply by Stoli on 12/4/13 9:35am
Msg #494948

Marian has gone to pot... n/m